Talk:Samo

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It seems to me that a translation from the German would be quite useful for this confusing, unorganized article.

The article is neither confusing, nor unorganized. It is written in chronological order. You are free to replace it by a translation of the much longer German version - but provided that you do not leave out information like you have done it in this article (the part about the merchants) - this is an encyclopeadia and not a collection of well sounding sentences, where you can leave out things because you just do not like them ... Juro 15:09, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What I removed was "but after the Slavs had killed some Frankish merchants and had stolen some of their commodities", which I replaced with "Slav conflicts with Frankish merchants" - admittedly, I removed some actual content, but an encyclopedia isn't just a collection of facts, either - it's a collection of well-organized, useful facts, and I'm not sure it's extremely important to include the nature of the conflicts between the Slavs and the French merchants.

As for the organization of the article, yes, it's in chronological order, but it's also one long narrative, and could use with smaller sections. I'm personally not qualified to make any of the changes I suggested (which may have been too harsh) - if I were, I would have done them myself. Chris Edgemon 06:26, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Samo’s empire’s capitol?

Does anyone know where was the capitol city of his empire (I did not see anything in Czech, German or Slovene)?
David Latapie (✒ | @) 15:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The capital has never been identified and there are no written sources about it. Concentration of archaeological findings around Devin Gate suggests that the center of power could be perhaps there, but no location has been safely confirmed. Anyway, European empires of the 7th century did not have capitals in the modern sense and the ruler usually traveled a lot around his domain, residing in different fortified settlements. Tankred 17:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

One Slavic Kingdom was founded here in the 8th Century in "Mikulcice" Moravia and this was the Captial before Olomouc and the later Brno. Historical site of Great Moravia (8-10th century AD). Two archeological exhibitions with priceless excavations. The original seat of Great Moravia kings and a place of cultural and the religious mission of St. Cyril and Methodius. But I do not know the excact location if there was ever one of Samo's castle. If anyone know more, plase add http://www.masaryk.info/slovanske-hradiste-mikulcice/ Best regards Casurgis from Sydney — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.0.254 (talk) 05:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Any other citation of Samo's Empire?

Is there any other reference of Samo's Empire rather than Frederick's Chronicle? As far as I know, there is no archeological site of proof. If only Frederick is dealing with this, can we really rely on this information? This is important, as pan-slavism is partly based on this empire. Abdulka 13:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fredegar's account is probably reliable. Samo's empire was not even close to pan-Slavic. Srnec (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Talking about an "Empire" seems already an exaggeration. Florin Curta always mentions him as a "king" (quotes included). Dipa1965 (talk) 20:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it is Fredegar which referred to him as "King" (Rex), however, Curta beleives he was just a chief, ie with powers during war time. That's why his son;s did not inherit the title. At best, his 'state' was a supratribal union. Hxseek (talk) 08:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Nope, Fredegar or the Fredegars text is the only contemporary source. Which is kind of funny, since such a "superhero" like Samo, who became some kind of king as a merchant (unusual back then) defeated the mighty Frankish empire and the mighty Avare empire and then rules a huge, so called Slavic empire for about 35 years should be mentioned somewhere else. In the contemporary chronicles or archives of Byzantine empire for example. Or in contemporary chronicles of the Langobards or of Bavarians. But not a single word about Samo or a "Slavic empire" here. Afaik. Seems this story is fiction. This doesn´t have to mean it´s not based on "some" historical events we don´t know about. It´s a bit like Homer telling us about something called "Trojan war".

188.98.243.185 (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Samo had always Slavic ancestry and respected it, never Frankish - also his name is Slavic and modern Slovenian name

Well i did not know that "Samo" is Frank term :DDD

here an interesting story about Samo and Dagobert's slaughtered "Frankish "traders" (spies) "

" 'Saj smo na uslugo Dagobertu, mi in naša zemlja, ako le hoče z nami v prijaznosti živeti.' "But we are in service here to Dagobert, we and our land, as if he wants to live with us in Friendliness..."

Siharij pa mu je izzivajoče odvrnil: 'ni mogoče, da bi živeli kristjani in služabniki božji v prijateljski zvezi s poganskimi psi.' ' Siharija challenging answered to him: "It is not possible to live as Christians and god's servants with friendly relationship with pagan dogs "

Dobro', mu odgovori Samo, 'ako ste vi božji služabniki, mi pa poganski psi, vas smemo raztrgati s svojimi zobmi, ker se tako obnašate proti svojemu bogu.' Potem so Siharija vrgli iz Samovega dvora. "

"Good, said Samo, if you are God's servants and we pagan dogs, it is allowed to us to torn you to pieces with our teeth, because you also act against your god" . Then they kicked Siharija (probably jewish name)out from the Samo's castle (literaly)

It was said that Siharija had to put old Slovene clothes on before entering the Samo's castle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.196.89.158 (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It would be the same error to claim that Boris Pahor is an Italian writer because he happens to be of Italian nationality, but ethnically he is 100% Slav. Claiming that Samo was Frankish merchant is a result of mixing up two different concepts; on one hand, a) "genere Francos" (meaning: Frank ethnically) which is highly unlikely that he would be one and still have such a respect for Slav cultural traditions including his personal name, demanding of Siharija to put on the Slavic clothes before entering his castle, fighting against Franks, unifying Slav tribes, and, on the other hand, b) "natione Francos" (meaning: originating from Frank state/nation that included Slavic areas under Frank rule). --DancingPhilosopher ^{my talk} 08:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why it would be particularly implausible for a Frankish renegade to adopt the customs and language of his Slavic hosts, as well as hostility towards his own people. The use of the word natio is no argument, as it refers to "a breed, stock, kind, species, race"; "a race of people, nation, people" (Lewis & Short). (Of course, natio derives from nasci; he was a Frank "by birth".) Iblardi (talk) 13:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Iblardi. And aa note, we should not overthink it too much. We should be along the way historiaans think (what do THEY think about it?), so to avoid original research on our part. --Reo ⁺ 15:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Occult nonsense. Slavs would never accept or elect the foreign rulers. Besides there lived many Venetic(Slavic) tribes in Frankish empire at that era; one of them was also the Merovingian family which used Slavic symbolism (Trident, Fleur de Lys) in their later reign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.107.180 (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

So this is the panslavistic get together section here? Funny. Samo was a Frank. Simply because the only source about some guy named Samo we have says so. Of course you may think and claim Fredegars story is nonsense. Maybe it is. But if you do so, you are denying that Samo ever existed. And if you do that you deny that Samo´s realm ever existed. What you can´t do is cherry picking from the text what fits in your simple minded nationalistic world view and what not. (Btw, Stalin was not a Slav, he was from Georgia, and was accepted by almost all Slavic people as their leader/ruler for decades. Do some research before posting utter nonsense)

188.96.192.117 (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you think that Samo wasn't of Wendic (Slavic) ancestry? Samo was "Frankish" by birth indeed (because they were citizens of France) - instead he never gave up his original faith in pre Christian Slavic gods. There lived Venedi (Slavs) in Frankish society too, like live many Slavs there today also. Merovingians (Mirovich) were of Venetic (Slavic) ancestry also. Here I am giving you one of many "memories" from this time...

Here is a simple similarity (among Fleur de Lys = symbol of Perun, Perunika (Iris flower) between Mirovich (Merovingian) fibula from Jouy-le-Comte(France) and Slavic fibula. Compare both of them good.

Merovingian ("Christian")

http://shrani.si/f/2G/Q6/3nrUM7QU/merovingian.jpg

Slavic (pre Christian) Fibula:

http://shrani.si/f/1v/p5/4PcUy8mw/slavic-fibula2.jpg

HEY! Stalin was not exactly popular at any point in his career. He was born in Georgia - then part of Russia - and spoke a Slavic language - that's all it takes to call yourself a Slav, really. And how fucking dumb are you, buddy? Most Slavic-speaking persons live outside the Russian empire and weren't exactly thrilled about their allies selling them out, then spending 50 years threatening to nuke them.

O.K. guys, let me set you straight on this. It's too bad the Russian and American "experts" disregard Armenian, Georgian, Persian, and Turkish records. Even the very excellent "Strategikon", written by the man (Maurice from Georgia) who had to deal with these zany Slavs pretty much anybody who speaks an un-Romanized Indo-European language . (The honest truth is that they were moving into areas either uninhabited or depopulated by the Plague Of Justinian. The idea that the Avars and Slavs were enemies is untrue; the combination of cavalry and foot strategies impressed even Maurice. But "Avars" is a Turkic brand and the Turks are too useful a scapegoat, especially when young Muscovites want to play "Cossacks and Tatars". (The Gokturk letter is basically a veiled threat...dealing with China for centuries will teach a man subtlety. "No, those Avars aren't ours...we'll send some even harder ones after them...enjoy dealing with them while we set up a multi-ethnic trade empire...sponsored by your least favorite religion.")

Anyway if "Slav" means anything racially it's Baltic or Caucasian with a Persian or Turkish shape to the eyes. I didn't bother looking at your stupid bones because you seem to think religion effects genetics. Lots of luck finding a "pure" racial and national identity. Slavic, German, and French are nothing but languages. Until mandatory schooling happened you'd hear a different dialect every 30 miles or so. Church service was done in Latin or Greek; (Frankish? Wouldn't that mean he's German? Also they didn't have citizenship then; they had serfdom.) SAMO is a Finnic name meaning "self" and also the first name of a post-Hun/pre-Khazar member of the Dulo clan, Samo Shambat. He did indeed spend some time in France and he was a salesman of sorts...swords and horses. But he was based near the Black Sea and took advantage of an endless Byzantine vs Persia war to solve a refugee problem. PS: "Frankish", in the 6th century, it just meant you were Roman Catholic and untouched by any terrifying Gothic heresies. To this day people in Asia use it as a synonym for European, like Europeans used to call everybody east of them a Saracen...a silk merchant.

Samo realm

In my opinion Samo realm deserves its own independent article the same way as in Czech or Slowenian (or Polish, Russian and many others) Wikipedias.. What the other watchers think? --Reo ⁺ 15:50, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Samo realm is not much different than Samo. Because it´s just a funny story told in the "Fredegar" cronicle. And probably a myth anyway, like so many other things in the "Fredegar" chronicle. This doesn´t have to mean there wasn´t some kind of western Slavic confederation in the 7. century against the Awares and those guys had some leader(s) for sure of course. But it´s highly doubtful that Fredegar´s Samo actually existed, not to speak of Samo´s realm in particular. My guess is that "Fredegar" merged several events and different persons he had only limited knowledge about into one fictional story.

188.98.255.119 (talk) 12:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Czech point of view

http://geolib.geology.cz/cgi-bin/gw?ST=03&SID=0039F9ACDA&L=02&KDE=037&RET=Raman+spectroscopic+provenance+determination+of+garnets+from+the+scramasaxe+scabbard+%28The+treasure+of+Barbarian+Prince+from+C%C3%A9zavy%2DBlu%C4%8Dina%2C+Czech+Republic%2C+late+5th+century%29%2E+%5C%5CRIV%2F00023272%3A%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%2F09%3A%230000893%5C

http://templ.net/english/texts-sword_from_blucina.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu%C4%8Dina_burial Good day, my written English is not the best. So can someone please update the so called Samo Period. This is the only artifact known that dates from Atilla the Hun, and the AVAR period 5th to 8th Century (Blucina Sword note German man). It is located 8km from Brno Moravia. No aritfacts have ever been found on Bohemian soil to my knowledge. But maybe someone should read history more carefully. Because I am far from an expert. But didn't Atilla the Hun and the later Avar's first entered Europe through the Silk road to raid the Roman Empire. Documents at the time were written in Latin and Greek and many citie's and rivers were named. None of these are on todays Czech Republic's Lands. http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo-gallery-ptolemy-s-geography-fotostrecke-59994-2.html , http://www.cs-magazin.com/index.php?a=a2011021048 . The rivers named are the Volga, Rhina, Danube. Also the "Chronicle of Fredegar" "slavic" "Befulci" can mean many things page 149 here: http://www.ffzg.unizg.hr/arheo/ska/tekstovi/fredegar_paul.pdf :https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1955&datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF or even google:define:Benfulci. If anyone can help in updating I will be greatful. Casurgis from Sydney — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.0.254 (talk) 04:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a map taken out of the book " History of the Czech Lands. Prior to 7th century. Best regards casurgis https://pdf.yt/d/KT5hjKqbbwMBko6Q -CZECH REPUBLIC MAP PRIOR TO 7TH CENTURY SAMO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.251.75 (talk) 11:06, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Samo's Empire

It's not clear why this was split off from Samo. "Samo's Empire" appears to have little or no historical standing. Curta does not mention it, while Bury says only "We have no right to speak of Samo's Empire". Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Bury: "The Slav Kingdom of Samo Of Samo's State only this is certain, that it bordered on Thuringia, and embraced the Main and Redantz (Regnitz) Slavs. Thus it lay in what had been Frankish territory, for Samo himself acknowledged: "The land we ..." The polity goes under several names in historiography (Samo's state, kingdom of Samo, Samo's kingdom, etc). For instance, instead of adding various views of the tribal union's extent to the biography, the content is placed where appropriate, in its own article.--Zoupan 13:05, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Note on tags

Given the paucity of sources on this subject, tags regarding expansion of the article are likely to simply sit on the page for good. The German WP article referenced does not have in-line citations, so one would require access to the sources used there. A survey of JSTOR doesn't turn up much of substance not already included on this page or the Samo's Empire article. Bascially splitting the article created two stubs, with little likelihood that either will be expanded -- I would be in favor of re-merging the two, as the only sources discuss both subjects together. I'm not seeing any MoS issues or grammar/spelling etc. issues, so I'm removing those tags. I did remove a dead link and a site that was a mirror of an earlier version of this article. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Thats fine, I'll just do that myself then. Also with all due respect, why are you stalking my edits? I want an answer because this is not coincidence you keep focusing on where I have been. It's creepy.--Sığe |д=) 19:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I first edited this page nearly three years ago ([1]), so it turned up on my Watchlist from some edits by an IP. Your accusation of stalking is highly inappropriate. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 19:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh my, erm I guess it is a coincidence then. I'm sorry.--Sığe |д=) 21:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

first recorded slavic political union

was macedonian sclavinia or sclavinia penem macedonia. 6-9th ct. frankish kings uniting slavs isn't the first time. also genseric uniting lugii, vandali and alani(turks). or varangians uniting finno-ugric and tartar tribes into rus (reich). tartars rulled the slavs too. but made from slavs, and run by slavs, is macedonian sclavinia.77.29.140.151 (talk) 11:55, 10 June 2016 (UTC)