Talk:Richard von Weizsäcker

Richard von Weizsäcker has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 27, 2015	Peer review	Reviewed
October 13, 2015	Good article nominee	Listed
A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on February 2, 2015.
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on April 15, 2021.
Current status: Good article

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Untitled

"Freiherr" is equal to the English title "lord", and since not all English-speaking people know what "Freiherr" is, the translation should be included. See the anglicization policy. Ertz 15:43, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe the title should be linked and an article written explaining what it means? -- Schnee 08:35, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've created an article Freiherr (a bit stubby at the moment). BTW: The German wikipedia article Freiherr says the title is equal to Baron or Sir. -- till we *) 10:54, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

P.S.: See also the table on the article nobility

P.P.S.: http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/nobility_faq.html gives also some valuable information on this topic -- and seconds the title "Baron" for a "Freiherr von".

"Lord" is not a real title, but it is used when addressing persons who actually have a different (real) title, from baron to duke, as "Herr" is, less consequent, in German. Freiherr is equal to Baron, and a Baron is in English usually adressed "lord" (for instance, baron Rothschild used the title "lord" in English). Elizabeth A 23:27, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think "Freiherr" should be removed because nobility is abolished in Germany, this information could be added in the Article. The "von" remained as a part of the name.

It's true that nobility is abolished, but both the "Freiherr" and the "von" are part of his legal name. (However today it's only a part of the name and can be passed on to adopted children, via the female line etc. just like any other name) Kellner

It is completely incorrect to say that the German Nobility has been abolished, unlike in Austria. For anyone who bothers to read the appropriate section of the Weimar Constitution, which the current German Grundgesetz or Basic Law still follows in this regard, they will find only the privileges and prerequisites of the Nobility have been abolished, not the class itself. In essence this meant nothing new, as by 1919 there essentially were no remaining legal noble privileges. By the way, Freiherr is equivalent to Baron. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:8200:5000:C5A5:EDAE:EB96:6E04 (talk) 02:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the paragraph which said that "Freiherr" is a title and not a name. It is not a title, because Germany has abolished noble titles. If he uses it as part of his name (as many other people do), it should be included as part of his name. If he doesn't, it should be removed. Adam 08:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

uncontested election

The article says "Due to the high esteem in which he is being held by Germany's political establishment, he is so far the only candidate to have stood for elections for the office of federal president uncontested;"

However, the article on the first president of the Federal Republic of Germany, Theodor_Heuss, mentions: "... In 1954 he was reelected with no opposition and held office until September 12, 1959."

Someone should check and amend either.

Theodor Heuß had seven opposing candidates in this election (one being former short-term president Karl Dönitz, another being Chancellor Konrad Adenauer) but collected 871 votes while his strongest Opponent, Alfred Weber gained 12 votes. All other candidates gained exactly one vote each. Weizäckers reelection was held with absolutely no other candidate in the ring.

Honorary doctorates

The 'Ruprecht Karls University' in Prague is a redlink that doesn't seem right - there's a Ruprecht Karl University of Heidelberg and a Charles University in Prague (Univerzita Karlova). Could it be one (or both) of these? Colonies Chris 11:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He was the chair of a commission installed by the current social democratic-green government for reforming the Bundeswehr.

"He was the chair of a commission installed by the current social democratic-green government for reforming the Bundeswehr."

this government is no longer current

counting of presidents

The article declares Weizsäcker the tenth president of germany.

In Germany, the counting usually is strictly parted into the Weimar Republic and the Federal Republic. Thus, Weizsäcker is usually entitled the sixth president of the Federal Republic. This makes sense because the office was completely restructured after the war and presidency in the Federal Republic is in no means comparable to presidency in the Weimar Republic.

For the Weimar Republic, Hitler and Dönitz are, still though they were formally president, usually not referred to as presidents. Hitler is noticed as the Potentate he was while Doenitz' never had any powers over a part of Germany larger than a tenth of it's actual size nor was he ever elected to any office. When he was pointed to be president through Hitler's last will, nearly all of Germany was already occupied by the allies. Usually, Ebert and Hindenburg are named the only presidents during the WR.

It also does not correspond with the high respect of the federal presidency to name Hitler as a predecessor in office.

So may the ones who feel responsible for the articles about the federal presidents of Germany please think about re-counting from one instead of from -4.

President of Germany

Accordingly with what has been discussed above, I took back a change made yesterday, where someone wrote "Office re-created" in the "Preceded by" box. That is simply false. Office re-created suggests Weizsäcker held the very same office that Hindenburg did, which is constitutionally wrong. Both were heads of state, but the powers and the very name of the office are different. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, I merged it together to "President of Germany". The way it was displayed before, it suggested that he held two different offices, which he did not. I changed the title of office to "President of the Federal Republic of Germany". This is the most precise way it can be put. He was elected Bundespräsident of the Federal Republic and he stayed in the very same office. Just the territory of the country he headed changed. Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:33, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I also took out the mentions of Dönitz and Hindenburg, since the way it was phrased now implied a continuency in office that is simply not there. I will try to find a better phrasing as I go along improving the article. Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Presiden of West Germany & President of Germany, should be treated seperately. GoodDay (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why? That would imply that it is a different office, which it is not. There wasn't even a seperate election!!! - which just proves it should not be seperated. Will change this back. A no-brainer. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unless we have reliable sources treating pre-unification West Germany and re-unified Germany as separate entities, we should keep the current handling. The East German territories acceded into West Germany - West Germany/Germany continued as the same legal entity in international law, international relations, and from its own constitutional point of view. GermanJoe (talk) 12:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The consistent use of "West Germany" and "President of West Germany" is not consistent with how that German state styles and styled itself. It is (and was) named Federal Republic of Germany and would either be referred by that name or short just Germany, very rarely West Germany. The president is officially and constitutionally called "Bundespräsident", "Federal President". It was a favourite term used by the Soviet Union and the German Democratic Republic in their attempts to undermine the legitimacy of the Federal Republic. The persistent use of the term "West Germany" could be seen as slightly ignorant and should be avoided, notwithstanding its preferred use by cold war warriors (from outside Germany) in their day.Mareaustralis (talk) 16:50, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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"Aristocratic Weizsäcker family"

When Richard von Weizsäcker was born in 1920, aristocracy had already been formally abolished in post-WWI Germany. So kindly correct the sentence "Born into the aristocratic Weizsäcker family, he took his first public offices [...]" as this statement is de facto not true, as outlined above. The Weizsäcker family was and is an outstanding family in German public life but it has not been aristocratic for more than 100 years. 85.216.120.142 (talk) 22:59, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do yo honestly think a family becomes less aristocratic because of legal changes? It doesn't. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:32, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

President of Germany or "West Germany"?

A dispute has arisen regarding whether Weizsäcker should be referred to as the "President of Germany" or "President of West Germany." Which of the two designations should be used? Emiya1980 (talk) 18:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PAustin4thApril1980, Denniss, Zwerg Nase, GermanJoe, Moonraker, GoodDay, Str1977, ApprenticeFan, The Rambling Man, Masterknighted, and Maxwhollymoralground:Emiya1980 (talk) 19:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GGeschwi, Qäsee, Alektor89, Ertz, Scanlan, Lettler, Schneelocke, Mr Hall of England, PrinceRegentLuitpold, and HaeB:Emiya1980 (talk) 07:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where is this dispute? I see no prior discussion on this talk page; per WP:RFCBEFORE you should indicate that normal discussion venues have been exhausted. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose It should remain Germany, as per usual designation. -- I also want to point out that previous (and broad) consensus across all related articles was Germany (and not West Germany) prior to User:Emiya1980 changing them. JackTheSecond (talk) 19:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To designate the President of West Germany as the "President of Germany" is tantamount to saying that the Federal Republic of Germany was a legitimate sovereign entity while the German Democratic Republic was not. Are you saying Wikipedia should favor one state over another despite its professed commitment to neutrality? Because that's the implication.Emiya1980 (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

President of West Germany/Germany - Would be my choice. GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For obvious reasons, Weizsäcker is trickier than anyone else, but I like what I see there now, President of the Federal Republic of Germany, as both areas of Germany that he was president of were called that. If we move away from that, we need to remember that he was not President of East Germany for much of his presidency. Although nor was anyone else. Moonraker (talk) 20:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose There already is an annotation to clarify the differance. More importantly, the head of state of the GDR went by a completely different title, very much by design, so I see no break of "neutrality". Maxwhollymoralground (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GDR was never called Germany, FRG was often shortened to Germany. GDR had a president for some years but its office had the title of "President of the Republic" --Denniss (talk) 10:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, I would like to stress the difference: Federal Republic of Germany vs. German Democratic Republic. Similiar to how the "German Empire" wasn't called "Empire of Germany" by design. Maxwhollymoralground (talk) 12:07, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"West Germany" was never the name of state Weizsäcker war President of. He was President of the Federal Republic of Germany, which was founded in 1949 and still exists to this day. It should especially be avoided to phrase this in a way that Weizsäcker switched from one into a different office on October 3, 1990. If one really wants to avoid "President of Germany", then it is "President of the Federal Republic of Germany" (but that's on either side of 1990). It is not a violation of NPOV to report reality as it was. Str1977 ^(talk) 22:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Str1977: I could not agree more. People who argue for anything else seem to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of what we are talking about. Any "West Germany/Germany" solution suggests that the office changed in 1990, which it did not. Weizsäcker was before 1990 and after the President of the Federal Republic, there wasn't even a new election. Therefore, in my opinion, "President of the Federal Republic of Germany" is the only viable option, as I had also put it when the article was elevated to GA back in 2015 (see old id here). Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]