Talk:Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

Potential source

From EW today, and it looks like they've done similar essays for other films in the franchise. --EEMIV (talk) 17:58, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Other allusions

• ”Don’t wait for the translation, answer me now,” a reference to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson’s speech during the Cuban missile crisis.

• ”There is no stockade,” the speech when Kirk and McCoy are brought to the prison (regardless of how it’s spelled) is almost word-for-word the same speech as in the beginning of The Bridge on the River Kwai: "If you work hard, you will be treated well, but if you do not work hard, you will be punished! A word to you about escape: there is no barbed wire, no stockade, no watch tower. They are not necessary. We are an island in the jungle. Escape is impossible. You would die. Today you rest. Tomorrow you will begin."

• The switchover from Klingon to English at the beginning of the trial is a reference to the film Judgment at Nuremberg

• Colonel West is a reference to Oliver North.

• ”The End of History,” Kirk’s speech at the end references Fukuyama’s article about the end of history.

• "The original Klingon" is a reference to the wartime British film "Pimpernel" Smith (1941) in which a German general quotes Shakespeare, saying “'To be or not to be,' as our great German poet said."

• ”Only Nixon could go to China.” A reference to President Nixon’s 1972 visit to China.

• ”We need breathing room,” a reference to Hitler’s take on Lebensraum or possibly a 1923 interview where he said, “they must have room to breathe and room to work.” A paraphrase.

• ”Have you not a shred of decency in you, Kirk?” A reference to Joseph Welch’s questioning of Senator McCarthy: “Senator; you've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”

• Guess who’s coming to dinner. A 1967 film about an interracial marriage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjengles3 (talk • contribs) 19:29, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

The article isn't intended to encompass every allusion or reference in the film; that's for IMBD trivia sections. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Spock and Sherlock Holmes

I had posted, "The film establishes Spock as a descendant of Sherlock Holmes" with a link to an online article by Reason. My edit was reverted with the comment, "it's a joke, and never explicitly says that Sherlock Holmes is actually an ancestor of Spock (and, you know, even in Star Trek he's a fictional character)."

The quote made by Spock is, "As an ancestor of mine once said, 'Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'" Spock clearly identifies the originator of the quote as his ancestor. It's in a serious scene, and Spock is not known for joking.

The quote, in slightly different forms, was made by Sherlock Holmes in pieces by Arthur Conan Doyle several times. These include, Chapter six of the 1890 Sherlock Holmes novel The Sign of the Four ("How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable. must be the truth?"), the 1892 Sherlock Holmes short story "The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet" ("It is an old maxim of mine that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."), the 1902 Sherlock Holmes short story "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans" ("We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"), and the 1926 short story "The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier" ("When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"). These are also listed at https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Holmesian_fallacy

Leonard Nimoy, who first played Spock and also played Sherlock Holmes in more than one production, wrote about the connection between the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Nimoy#Stage has this, which I believe is one way inaccurate:

"In 1975 he toured with and played the title role in the Royal Shakespeare Company's Sherlock Holmes. A number of authors have perceived parallels between the rational Holmes and the character of Spock, and it became a running theme in Star Trek fan clubs. Star Trek writer Nicholas Meyer said that 'the link between Spock and Holmes was obvious to everyone.' Meyer gives a few examples, including a scene in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, in which Spock quotes directly from a Doyle book and credits Holmes as a forefather to the logic he was espousing. In addition, the connection was implied in Star Trek: The Next Generation, which paid homage to both Holmes and Spock."

As quoted above from the film itself, Spock does not mention Holmes as just a forefather to his logic, nor does the article linked say this. He specifically says, "As an ancestor of mine once said...."

The article "The Many Resurrections of Sherlock Holmes" mentions the scene from The Undiscovered Country, then says, "It's canon: Sherlock Holmes is one of Mr. Spock's human ancestors." It quotes the movie's script's co-writer, and later director, Nicholas Meyer, as saying, "The link between Spock and Holmes was obvious to everyone. I just sort of made it official." As a script writer, Meyer could not make it "official" until it was accepted and displayed on screen. The article is at https://reason.com/2015/09/12/the-many-resurrections-of-sher/

According to an article in the Orlando Sentinel which appeared shortly before The Undiscovered Country was released, "If the movie's script is any indication, the ultra-logical Mr. Spock is descended from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's ultra-logical Sherlock Holmes - on Spock's human mother's side, presumably." It mentions the Sherlockian quote from the movie, then says, "Hence, Holmes is Spock's ancestor."

The article goes on to say, "Nicholas Meyer, who directed and co-wrote the new Star Trek movie, confirms that this is what he meant by the line. 'Clearly, you have understood my intention,' he said Tuesday, speaking by phone from London, where he lives."

Meyer leaves the determination of Holmes being Spock's ancestor to Spock. He said, "'I have a good time watching the movie when I see it with a (preview) audience, because there are enough Holmes buffs in the audience that people go nuts when that line comes up,' Meyer added. 'And they go, "Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Is this possible?" And the answer is: I don't know if it's possible. It's what Spock said.'" The article is at https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1991-12-04-9112040863-story.html

The website The Arthur Conan Doyle Encyclopedia recognizes the connection under "Sherlockian link in Star Trek":

"Spock was born in 2230 from a human mother, Amanda Grayson, and a Vulcan father, Ambassador Sarek. In the movie Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, he said: 'An ancestor of mine maintained that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth.' The author of this quote is Sherlock Holmes." This article is at https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=Leonard_Nimoy

Finally, looked at in reverse, Sherlock's Home had this about the quote from the Star Trek movie:

"This is a well­-known phrase from the Doyle canon and creates a fascinating connection between these two well­-loved characters. What’s more, when Sherlock uses the same phrase in 'The Hounds of Baskerville' John calls him 'Spock', as in their world Spock said it first!" https://sherlockshome.net/2015/03/03/a-study-in-sherlock-and-spock/

If, in spite of the above, editors believe Spock's apparent claim of Sherlock Holmes as an ancestor is not verified, maybe we could use a line like this: "Spock seems to claim he is a descendant of Sherlock Holmes."

Would that take care of the objections?

(If I seem to be obsessed about this, well....my nickname used to be Spock, I wrote and starred in a play about Sherlock Holmes, and my latest book that's currently under peer review mentions Vulcans....) Alden Loveshade (talk) 02:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Responding as requested.

The synthesis by the Sentinel film reviewer notwithstanding—and that also takes into account Meyer's statement, "Clearly, you have understood my intention"—the next paragraph ices it for me:

"I have a good time watching the movie when I see it with a (preview) audience, because there are enough Holmes buffs in the audience that people go nuts when that line comes up," Meyer added. "And they go, 'Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Is this possible?' And the answer is: I don't know if it's possible. It's what Spock said." (emphasis mine)

This falls in line with my assertion that Meyer intended no more than his stated "link", and not necessarily a relation.

To assume a relation where there are numerous potential explanations for the link—including the quite viable postulations within fictional universes that Holmes employed the phrase having heard it elsewhere, or that Spock's ancestor heard it from Holmes—precludes any statement of relation as established fact in encyclopaedic terms.

Short answer: IMO, no, it does not overrule the objections. ATS (talk) 02:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Addendum 1: I've just reread The Sign of the Four, chapter XI, "Sherlock Holmes Gives a Demonstration", which you include above, but:

"How often have I said to you [Watson] that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?" (emphasis mine)

As you note, Holmes states that he has repeated this maxim, and quite often. Therefore, as syntheses go, we cannot eliminate the possibility that Amanda Grayson is descended from … Dr. John Watson!

Signed, an old Trekkie himself, ATS (talk) 03:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC) 🤪

Addendum 2: Here's the quote from "The Hounds of Baskerville":

"Look at me, I'm afraid, John—always been able to keep myself distant, divorce myself from feelings—but, you see, my body's betraying me. Interesting, yes? Emotions. The grit on the lens; fly in the ointment."

"Yeah, all right, Spock, just—take it easy."

Note that this is from Sherlock, not from the Doyle novel. The episode aired in 2012, more than 20 years after the film; is a retcon by the screenwriter, not evidence of the film's intent; and references Sherlock's 'divorce' from emotions rather than any elimination of the impossible.

ATS (talk) 04:06, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I must admit you make some good points; thanks! I do think, though, as there have been several articles written about the possible ancestry, and it is a significant issue with fans, that there might be some way to mention the possible connection. For some people (including me) that was one of the most significant parts of The Undiscovered Country. Can you think of a way of mentioning the issue in the article without going too far? Alden Loveshade (talk) 04:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I've given that some thought, and nothing really occurs to me, other than it would need to be encyclopaedic and not go beyond fact—something to the effect that Meyer, who has written Holmes, acknowledges making the link. Perhaps part of a rejiggered section on literary inspiration, together with the Shakespeare references? ATS (talk) 04:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Before I retire for the night, this hit me:

Meyer's script includes a reference by Spock to an 'ancestor' who maintained that once the impossible is eliminated, what remains must be true, no matter how unlikely it is. This statement was made by Sherlock Holmes in several novels by Arthur Conan Doyle; Meyer, too, has written Holmes novels, and has acknowledged the link.

Words to that effect. ATS (talk) 05:02, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't mean joke as in Spock is making a joke, but it's a joke in that Meyer is putting famous words into other people's mouths and recontextualizing them. If you took Spock's claim as proof that his ancestor was Holmes, wouldn't that mean that by the same logic Shakespeare was originally a Klingon (as Chang says that you have not experienced his work until you've heard it in the original Klingon)? Either way, it's basically just trivia that's better left on IMDB than on Wikipedia. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:32, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

There's also the joke about Checkov calling Cinderella a "Russian epic." It's a running gag (for lack of a better word) in the same way as "a lie?"/"a <something>" is a running thread throughout the film. I agree with considering it trivia rather than something that belongs here. Brad E. Williams (talk) 15:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

David Fuchs, that was Gorkon, not Chang, and the application of logic here is in fact unnecessary. As opposed to hinting that Spock's ancestry might include Holmes, Gorkon directly claims "you have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon", which can only be taken as an assertion that his works were eventually translated from Klingon into Earth English. Meyer clearly (and admittedly) had fun with the Shakespeare references as allegory to the Cold War.

Brad E. Williams, as for Holmes, Loveshade (what a great theatre name!) makes what I consider a legitimate point: the link has been analysed far beyond the mere trivial and in the same manner as Shakespeare and, again, Meyer admits the link. As such, I've added it to the article. Meanwhile, without looking, I would almost guarantee that Star Trek articles mention Chekov's running joke about everything being a "Russian invention". Also, the running "A lie?" theme in ST6 would be germane if presented within the context of Spock's open anger at Valeris's betrayal.

Alden Loveshade, with that said, I would not re-add it to Nimoy's article without absolute proof that Meyer intended to make canon a relationship rather than a link. My opinion, anyway. ATS (talk) 16:03, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that! I did take the liberty of making a small change in this article to "This statement was made by Sherlock Holmes in several novels by Doyle..." changing "novels" to "works." Three of the four Doyle references I found to the Holmes quote were actually in short stories. Alden Loveshade (talk) 17:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Bloody hell! You are correct, sir! ATS (talk) 18:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

ATS, what do you think about having something in the Spock article like "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country hinted that Spock could be a descendant of Sherlock Holmes"? That would be accurate without making a definite conclusion on the ancestry. Alden Loveshade (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Alden Loveshade, two reasons: first, I have always shied away from hinteds and could bes in an encyclopedia which, by definition, offers facts; and second, its inclusion would somehow have to answer why it is encyclopaedic and not mere trivia, as David Fuchs notes.

In the meantime, I have a feeling you might enjoy my essay born of this discussion. 😏 ATS (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

ATS I did enjoy the essay--thanks! Alden Loveshade (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Alden Loveshade I've just revisited this, and I remain unable to think of an appropriate way to add this to Spock's article that isn't just a carefully worded rendition of "Meyer kind of hinted that Spock may be related to Holmes, but not really." —ATS (talk) 17:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

ATSThanks. I may try to come up with an angle, but we'll see. Alden Loveshade (talk) 19:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I was just looking through the discussion, and I have to question "[t]he author of this quote is Sherlock Holmes" from the Nimoy article at ACD. The author of the quote is Doyle, not Holmes, and I don't think that's a pedantic distinction. Given that Holmes is established as a fictional character in the Trek universe, wouldn't it be more likely that Spock's ancestor is Doyle (unless he's just being cheeky and subtly implying that he's descended from the greatest fictional sleuth in history), who is not fictional in-universe? That would still mean there's a link, as Meyer put it, between Spock and Holmes. It's a "could be," of course, which doesn't belong in an encyclopedia as ATS appropriately notes, but it's something that occurred to me. Brad E. Williams (talk) 15:09, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Brad E. Williams (and everyone), it should be noted that ACD is a wiki. 😁 —ATS (talk) 15:35, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Indeed! I'd never been to the site previously, so I took a look around; if it had been something run/maintained by the Doyle estate or otherwise authoritative, my reaction to the essay would've been a bit different. :) Brad E. Williams (talk) 17:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

ATS Thanks. I often wonder "What are those initials for anyway?" (Actually, I just made a post elsewhere asking that very question today.) Alden Loveshade (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Brad E. Williams I saw a site that mentioned the possible Doyle ancestry. However, I don't think that's a likely connection based on Leonard Nimoy (who played both Spock and Sherlock Holmes several times) connecting the two; and Star Trek/Holmes author Meyer's stated intent and his being pleased at Sherlockians linking Spock to Holmes based on the quote. Alden Loveshade (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

A New Generation of Explorers

I think it's pretty clear that the baton-passing in Kirk's closing narration was intended to refer to the TNG crew and not that of the next ship to bear the Enterprise name. The clearest indication is the "where no man... where no one has gone before" transition, bridging the difference between Kirk's and Picard's narration. The official Star Trek site's synopsis even references the TNG name by noting that the baton is being passed to a "new generation" of explorers. Brad E. Williams (talk) 13:49, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I've removed the parenthetical entirely. It's simply not important for the plot section, the rest of the article makes abundantly clear what was going on in Trek otherwise, and as you say it's intended to be TNG since the Enterprise-B hadn't really be conceived for Generations yet that it's more likely it's supposed to link to the currently-running TV show. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:22, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

That works for me! Thanks! Brad E. Williams (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Poster Art

Should someone replace the poster art with the actual poster? Jazzy Jazz Jr (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

No, I think it's fine. It's been there since 2008 without issue. We're not compelled to show the title or even the billing block (which is unreadable with that low resolution anyway). Some films have dozens of posters, and it doesn't matter that much which one to pick. It's probably not going to match what people see on Netflix and other streaming services. It's just something to have as visual identification. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 04:27, 8 February 2022 (UTC)