Talk:Law and Justice

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This article was nominated for merging with United Right (Poland) on 17 June 2020. The result of the discussion was oppose.

Improper name translation

As a proper name, it shouldn't be translated at all, for example Danish Venstre, Spanish Sumar. Word 'prawo' has several meanings and it's used on purpose. Maybe there should be a side note with more detailed explanation about the name. Wiki is tricky (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is policy that Wikipedia should reflect WP:reliable sources. English-language reliable sources refer to the party as "Law and Justice" so Wikipedia does, too. If you think, the party name shouldn't be translated, you'd have to tell that to the reliable sources we rely on. Maybe there should be a side note with more detailed explanation about the name. If reliable sources make a point of explaining this, we can, too. Otherwise, we probably shouldn't. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 17:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What’s is the reliable source in this case? Wiki is tricky (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, what do you mean? Robby.is.on (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What are the English reliable sources that refer to the party as 'law and justice'? Wiki is tricky (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reckon you could check any of the ones currently used in the article. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're not on the same page. My point is that official name of the party is 'prawo i sprawiedliwość' which can be found in the statute of party accepted by court. 'law and justice' is not official name it's English translation commonly used for convenience of English speakers and it's not perfect. 'Prawo i sprawiedliwość' is a brand name and should be used as a page name for the article. 'law and justice' should be a side note not the main name. I've pointed out as an example Danish party 'venstre' where page name of the article uses original Danish name. Wiki is tricky (talk) 11:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. WP:CRITERIA states: "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject."

English-language sources refer to the Danish party as "Venstre" so we use that. For the Polish party, the WP:COMMONNAME is "Law and Justice". Robby.is.on (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are those instructions valid for all languages or just English? Wiki is tricky (talk) 08:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? Robby.is.on (talk) 09:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean that not every language is consistent with your argumentation. If you check the article for other languages you see that they different path. German wiki for the name of the article uses the original name and it's the second, by number of articles, biggest wiki. I doubt that for German speakers it's convenient to use Polish names but they are trying to be objective. If you look for Venstre in English wiki you find two records one for Danish and one for Norwegian party. Article for Danish has original name but the Norwegian uses translated name. When you check venstre in German wiki both articles are named with original parties names. Even though that all three languages are germanic the German doesn't have word 'venstre'. By knowing how much Germans are protective about their language, they use dubbing everywhere, in this case it seems like being strict to the facts is more important. Having look on Slavic language wikis which use Cyrillic script, inconsistency can be seen. Some translates and some only transliterates. Wiki is tricky (talk) 10:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how other Wikipedias operate. If there are inconsistencies across Wikipedias that would need to be discussed elsewhere. This article Talk page is not the place. Here you need to argue based on the English Wikipedia's existing policies and guidelines. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The thing I'm pointing out could also affect to this article. Could you tell where this topic should be raised? The policies you are referring to are vague and arbitrary as can be seen worldwide. Wiki is tricky (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most political parties have it's name as a translation 2023 Polish parliamentary election#Lists: League of Polish Families, Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland, Solidarity Electoral Action, Centre Agreement. Your opinion that it is not correct is not relevant as You are mistaking a Proper noun with just common words that can be translated. Proper name is Kukiz'15 or Mirosław Piasecki Candidate for Senator RP. Please understand that this will not change. Other Wikis also use translations es:Ley y Justicia, fr:Droit et justice, pt:Lei e Justiça. YBSOne (talk) 11:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some does and some doesn't, that's a fact and there is some reason behind it. Name of party is a proper noun because it "identifies a single entity and is used to refer to that entity". Just like people's names. There might be couple of persons named John Smith but there is no category of things that could be called John Smiths. Can you say that there are many 'prawo and sprawiedliwość'? It wouldn't be allowed by law to register second party in the same country with the same name. There is also reason why they start with capital letters. Wiki is tricky (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wiki is tricky: Wikipedia policies are clear. If you don't agree with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, you're welcome to argue at those policies' talk pages. Oh, and by the way, I'm seeing that foreign party names also get translated into Polish: [1][2][3], so you should not be surprised at all. — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Far right

Can someone explain to me why, with so many academic sources,^[1] the article does not call the party far-right? What are you waiting for to do it? Hidolo (talk) 00:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Simple. Because PiS is not a far right party. We have a policy on due and undue weight. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What? According to that same Wikipedia policy that you cite, it says that if there is a majority that affirms this, it should be added to the article. Also, according to whom PIS is not a far-right party? According to you? Does there have any valid argument for throwing away all the academic sources that determine that the party is far right? You are definitely implying that what you want to do is an arbitrary conception of reality. It doesn't seem like a good action to me coming from a user who has been in Wikipedia for more than 18 years. It's a delirium. 2800:2503:101:3BD8:A600:4969:B37B:F54A (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's my comment. Hidolo (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not enough to quote academic sources, and primary ones on top of that. The quoted sources, ideally secondary, must reflect scholarly consensus, which certainly is not on the far-right label.

For now, the tertiary source Britannica terms PiS as "centre-right" [4]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. That is the only one current source that described the party as centre-right. So I think it is a minority opinion. Hidolo (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That source is talking about the party in 2007 - that does not necessarily have bearing on what the party is like today. Center-right is an uncommon and unfitting label. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a great variety of sources which call this party far-right:

https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20231017-four-questions-about-poland-s-election-results.cfm

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/31/1222337095/in-a-year-of-gains-for-the-far-right-in-europe-poland-became-the-outlier

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/06/magazine/the-party-that-wants-to-make-poland-great-again.html

https://www.dw.com/en/polish-media-conflict-pits-government-against-far-right/a-67884162

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1230673951/poland-new-government-polish-news-media

I am honestly somewhat surprised; usually it is the left on this website which has biased calls on ideology and then mobs the dissenters. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Law and Justice is a right-wing party with centre-right and far-right elements and factions. Therefore, it's only logical to put right-wing and maybe add factions. Odideum (talk) 20:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any source? Hidolo (talk) 22:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also consider that being a populist party their position on political spectrum may change as those parties tend to radicalise themselves more and more. YBSOne (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. This party is commonly described as such.

(and it's also kind of corrupt, but that's besides the point) JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^
- Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.
- Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.
- Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.
- Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.
- Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.
- "Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

Add "social conservatism" to ideology.

PiS is a social conservative party, outlined by their anti LGBTQIA+ stance. Is this enough to warrant adding it to the ideology? 121.45.107.215 (talk) 01:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] 
Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.
Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.
Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.
Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.
Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.
"Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

[2] Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.

[3] Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.

[4] Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.

[5] Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.

[6] Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.

[7] "Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

[1]