Talk:Right-bank Ukraine

On 1 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Right-Bank Ukraine. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Untitled

If this article is moved to Wiktionary, then people who are not familiar with Russian or Ukrainian history will have no idea what it means! I believe it should remain where it is. Those who can add more to this article, please do so. KNewman 00:00, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Articles can link to the Wiktionary. --Sgeo | Talk 21:52, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, OK then. I didn't know that, thanx. KNewman 22:31, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Map Problem

The map shows the left and right sides of the Dnieper, which is good geographically but not politically. About 1700 the area north of the Black Sea belonged to Crimea. The Polish Right Bank went part way down the river but excluded the area in the Dnieper bend. The Russian Left Bank went about as far south. East and west of the bend was Zaporozhia which was nominally subject to the left bank and secondarily to Russia. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 03:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Requested move 1 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There is not a clear consensus to move or not to move the articles proposed. Supporters of the move cite COMMONNAME in support of their position, while opposition cites HYPHENCAPS and suggests issues with the sourcing provided. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 04:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– WP:COMMONNAME. The names are fully capitalized in most sources according to Google Ngram.[1][2] Surveying the standard histories, we see the following in their index:

Orest Subtelny 2009 [1988], Ukraine: A History, 4th ed.: Left Bank (758), Right Bank (770).
Paul R. Magocsi 1996, A History of Ukraine, 1st ed.: Left Bank (752), Right Bank (767).
Serhy Yekelchyk 2007, Ukraine: Birth of a Modern Nation: Left-Bank Ukraine, Left Bank (272), Right-Bank Ukraine, Right Bank (275).
Andrew Wilson 2015, The Ukrainians, Unexpected Nation, 4th ed.: Left Bank (404), Right Bank (406).
Serhii Plokhy 2021, The Frontline: Essays on Ukraine’s Past and Present: Left Bank Ukraine (393), Right-Bank Ukraine (396) [I used this book because the terms don’t appear in the index of Plokhy’s Gates of Europe; yes, only one is hyphenated in the index].

—Michael Z. 18:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 00:11, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see from capitalization in the sources cited above and the majority of others,[3] Ukraine’s Left Bank (Uk. Livoberezhzhia) and the Right Bank (Pravoberezhzhia)[4] are proper names of historical regions, and so are the fuller derived names using adjectival forms Left-Bank Ukraine (Livoberezhna Ukraina) and Right-Bank Ukraine (Pravoberezhna Ukraina),[5] which are more appropriate for titles because they are clearer out of context. They should all be capitalized as proper names. —Michael Z. 20:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

support per nom—blindlynx 18:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note @Mzajac: from this edit I'm assuming that you intended to make this a multi-move discussion, so I finished changing the template and closed the RM at the other talk page. Please feel free to undo if I guessed incorrectly. BegbertBiggs (talk) 19:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, @BegbertBiggs. I used Twinkle to start the RM and couldn’t figure out the optimal way to add the second page. —Michael Z. 05:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose as contrary to MOS:HYPHENCAPS. See also this Ngram. Uses of "Left Bank" and "Right Bank" (without a hyphen) don't count, since those are uses as nouns and different from what is proposed. Here, "Left-Bank" and "Right-Bank" are compound adjectives. Different authors have different style guidelines, and many people use capital letters more than Wikipedia does. Wikipedia's style is to "avoid unnecessary capitalization", per MOS:CAPS. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to be a misinterpretation on both counts. Uses of the Left Bank and Right Bank show that these are proper names capitalized in running text. So they are capitalized when used as adjectives in Left-Bank Ukraine and Right-Bank Ukraine, exactly according to HYPHENCAPS: “except for terms that would ordinarily be capitalized in running prose, such as proper names.” The Ngram chart reinforces this, showing that the capitalized use is most common in sources. —Michael Z. 22:17, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Bank" is not a term that would ordinarily be capitalized. That's referring to terms like "Chicago", "Hutchinson", "Rolex", or "Tuesday". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Right Bank and Left Bank of the Dnipro are unique geographical regions with proper names that are most often capitalized, as attested by the very evidence you referred to. And they are still capitalized when used as adjectives, just as in Chicago windows or Rolex watch. —Michael Z. 03:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Right Bank" and "Left Bank" don't have hyphens in them, so they are not relevant to the question. (They also are not always followed by "Ukraine".) "Bank" is not a term that is ordinarily capitalized, like "Chicago" or "Rolex" or "Tuesday" or "Hoosier". Actually, WP:Manual of Style/Titles § Hyphenation and WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Hyphenation and compounds may be better references than MOS:HYPHENCAPS, since MOS:HYPHENCAPS is not about proper names, while "Right-bank Ukraine" and "Left-bank Ukraine" do seem to be proper names. But in these particular hyphenated phrases, there seems to be a mixture in sources, and Wikipedia tends to use lowercase when that occurs. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination and blindlynx. The presented evidence is convincing. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: For policy based !votes Reading Beans (talk) 00:11, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The issue with the NGRAMS figures given is if you check them most of the forms listed have no hits, and the overall frequency is low. NGRAMS results for rare terms are less reliable, in my experience. If you do the search on Google Scholar, which is not hyphen sensitive, suffixed with "is"[6][7] or "was"[8][9] to exclude results that are capitalized because they are in titles, you see mixed capitalization. It may be that the capitalized form is more common, but I don't think it is consistently capitalized in running text—which is the relevant standard per WP:NCCAPS. (t · c) buidhe 06:09, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t understand the assertions in your first sentence. Can you explain with links? I see that the graphed forms do have hits. The “overall frequency is low” compared to what?

(Your two first links are identical, but I see what was intended.)

Did you count all 429 Scholar results? When I look at the first page of each of the four intended searches, I count 24 uppercase to 9 lowercase: a clear majority of 2.7 to 1, or 73% capitalized. The first page is just a random sample, but uppercase is the majority appearing in all four.

You can also use Ngram to calculate the relative frequency in Google Books results.[10][11] —Michael Z. 02:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again those links seem to include unhyphenated variants. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Buidhe’s argument is about capitalization, so I isolated that variable. If you break it down, capitalization is significantly more common in both hyphenated[12] and unhyphenated[13] versions.

Regarding NCCAPS, the first sentence says do not capitalize second word “unless the title is a proper name.” These are proper names. These names are most commonly capitalized, whether hyphenated or not, because they are proper names of specific historical regions. In the context of Ukraine, sources use the Left Bank and the Right Bank to refer to halves of the country, not the actual banks on the Dnipro river, and “left-bank” and “right-bank” are not just generic adjectives applicable to any country. —Michael Z. 20:38, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per MOS:HYPHENCAPS, BarrelProof and buidhe. Bank is not a proper name that would normally be capitalised therefore we do not capitalise it after a hyphen. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Cinderella157. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 16:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.