Talk:Penny Wong

Comment by Ambi

"member of the Australian Senate since ,"

Looks like there's a missing date there.

• It should be kept in mind that, although given prominence in the article, the fact that she is a lesbian is not that important in Australian politics, where personal lives are generally not the concern of political debate, and I believe she herself only mentioned her lesbianism as a somewhat offside comment, not giving it too much importance with regard to her role as a parliamentarian.
  • While this is true, as a first, it nevertheless warrants mention in the article. Ambi 00:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
    • After her very visible support in the same-sex marriage debate I think it is relevant so leave Wakelamp (talk) 12:29, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

My recollection is that she first said in public she was a lesbian while addressing Caucus at the time of the 2004 same-sex marriage controversy. Adam 01:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

"industrial officer"

The term "industrial officer" appears to be a uniquely Australian one. From context it would appear to be a salaried trades union official. If that's the case, to what article should it be linked? I guess it's not a shop steward. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 10:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

No, shop-steward in Australia refers to an employee of the unionized company who represents workers at her/his company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.22.252.68 (talk) 18:28, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

And same link should be made in the articles of a number of other Australians who've been IOs too - list. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 10:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Name in Chinese characters

I have no objection to the alternative name if she uses it as an alternative name, but the alternative name should not be there just because she has an Asian background. Can these names please be referenced. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 23:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Read my user page on my opinion regarding adding native text to articles. Wikipedia is a worldwide project. Google hits lead people around the world to this place. Researchers around the world may use this wikipedia as a starting point to gather info elsewhere. It is very helpful encyclopedic information to add native text to disambiguate any alternative spellings. Even though Penny Wong is Australian, Chinese news agency around the world would cover her news more than any other Australians just because of her Chinese ethnicity. I'll bet Chinese media would be the second most abundent source of info about her right after the local Australian sources. It would be a loss if researchers fail to make a connection between the two identities. Please also note that the Chinese text is NOT a transliteration of her English name into Chinese. It is her Chiense name. Since Chinese to English transliteration is not a reversible process, you cannot map Ying-yen Wong back to Chinese due to the large number of homonyms in Chinese. You may be able to transliterate her name back and forth between English and Cyrillic very easily, but because she does not have a Russian name hence the exact cyrillic spelling is irrelevant. It is not the same situation for her Chinese name. Deleting the native text is a loss of information to the article and to many researchers seeking alternative sources. For more discussion on why Chinese text is needed for Chinese people's name, read the talk page on Michelle Kwan. If you need references for Penny Wong's Chinese name, simply cut and past her Chinese name into Google and do an image search or a websearch, or News Search. Don't tell me the Chinese news coverage of her is useless to you because you cannot read Chinese. What is useless to you is helpful to millions other people. A link between the two identities is essential. Kowloonese 02:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying such information would be useless to me or anyone else, I just don't know of any such information, and you still haven't cited one... if, as you say, there is a lot of information on Ms Wong from Chinese media than it should not be a problem for you to cite one. Google translation is not a source that her Chinese name is an alternative name for this person, if it is not a translation then how did you find out that that is her ethnic name? If it is only a translation that this information is providing then it is not encyclopaedic, I also note that there is not even a stub wikipedia article on Ms Wong in any other language (remember this is an English language wikipeadia project, there is nothing stopping people {or yourself} from creating a referenced article on the Chinese wikipedia and info can then be translated between the two articles and sourced to their original references). If she does have two identities than that is fine, but that should be a fairly simple thing to source if it is true, I look forward to you producing that source. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 04:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC) (ps I have tried to do this myself by a googlenews search of 黃英賢 both in English Googlenews and the Chinese Googlenews, both came up with 0 results, although I have never searched with Chinese characters before so I might have done it wrong)

I'm removing the reference to the Chinese translation of her name in 24 hours unless a reference has been provided that it is actually an alternative name for this person that is actually used. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 13:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles about her can easily be found in Chinese printed media. Some references can also be found on the web too. Her Chinese name is used consistently in the majority of publications which indicates her Chinese name is NOT a transliteration, it is indeed her alternate identity to the Chinese community. Chinese can be written in two forms Traditional and Simplified, other than the variation in these two written forms (黃英賢 vs. 黄英贤), the same name is used everywhere. In very rare occasions, you can find her name written as transliteration of Penny Wong (參議員 潘尼∙王 lit. senator "Paan Nee - Wang"), which is obviously just a Chinese phonetic notation of her English name, in contrast with her real Chinese name. In those rare cases, her last name is changed to Wang according to Mandarin transliteration instead of Wong because the translators failed to get her Chinese identity correctly. The translators also failed to realize her native tongue is not Mandarin, hence a Mandarin transliteration results in a totally different last name. In comparison, you can easily find a few dozens Chinese transliteration of George Bush's name because he does not have a Chinese name. The consistency of a real identity vs. the inconsistency of a transliteration can be seen easily in pulbications. Simple Google Web search shows a number of biographical and news articles of hers in Chinese. e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], etc. They are too numerous to list. [7] will show a list of matches, however, you may want to get a translator to verify all these do indeed refer to the same person because her Chinese name is quite common. The "Translate this page" link on Google's result page is good enough to verify the content of the pages. You can narrow down the search by adding the Chinese text of "Australia" into the keyword.

Google image search [8] shows a few of her picutures too. For some reason, Google news search does not show anything at all. I also tried the same with her English name in Google news search and only a few dozens matches show up. So I am not surprised the Chinese News search does not get much in the Google index. It is a Google news indexing problem, it does not disprove anything. Wikipedia uses two name formats for biographic entries. One is to put all the information, such as alternate identities, birthday etc. in parenthesis on the first line. The other is to create an info box on the right to present all info as a table format. If you think the former is not appropriate, perhaps the latter format will be a good compromise. Kowloonese 01:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for providing those references Kowloonese, I will check them out tonight, although I'm sure they are correct. I like your suggestion of using an info box which should really be there anyway as most of the Australian politicians who have decent sized articles do have info boxs. I appreciate the effort you went to and sorry for my confusion based on the lack of results in googlenews. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 02:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

While you are at it, pay attention to read how the Chinese media cover her background and her political views. I can guarantee that you will find some Chinese centric information from the Chinese articles that you probably will never see in Australian English newspapers. The senator may present herself differently to her constituents in the Chinese community than to the general public. It could be an eye opener for you if you were only exposed to one-side view or coverage. I hope you see the value of including alternate names in the article in its native text because it opens up more resources for researchers to get different aspects of the same person/topic. The additional info is encyclopedic regardless who she is and where she lives. It is all about additional information sources and the identity links to them. You will miss out on the additional info unless you know how to translate her name into Chinese. And I am telling you that transliteration of her name will not help you to produce her Chinese name, hence it is important to include it in the article. Kowloonese 17:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC).

Fixed - reference http://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/481030 has the Chinese name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_names article explains that Chinese Malaysians are known by multiple names depending on social context. SO I agree with Kowloonese. The point about politicians being known in different countries by the name in that language is not the same as Penny Wong is part of that culture rather than a visitor to that culture. The Wikipedia Chinese could use the Chinese name for John Howard and ref to the English name. If Kowloonese has a CHinese newspaer reference to Penny's name that would be good Wakelamp (talk) 12:36, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

now fixedish [[9]] Wakelamp (talk) 12:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

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生于马来西亚的黄英贤，8岁时随父母从马来西亚移民到澳大利亚南澳州，她从没有想到自己的一生将与澳大利亚的政治联系在一起，而且会成为位居最高、进入工党影子内阁的首位华裔。

端庄美丽、年轻有为的黄英贤，以勇气与才智闻名政坛，她以自己的实力成为澳大利亚首位华裔女参议员、工党影子内阁就业部部长。作为第一位进入联邦议会的华人女性，黄英贤的成功经历一直受到澳洲主流社会和华人社区的关注。

从小受中华文化熏陶

黄英贤说，祖母是她一生最敬重，也是她所见过的最坚强的人。黄英贤的祖母是马来西亚的客家人。当第二次世界大战的战火烧到马来西亚时，残酷的战争夺去了许多亲人的生命，只剩下祖母和她的孩子们处在贫困交加的处境，但是祖母顽强面对。祖母这种坚强的意志也传给了黄英贤。她在澳洲参议院的首次演讲，也专门提到祖母对她的影响。

黄英贤的父亲黄义生是一名建筑师，在上世纪60年代因获得澳大利亚奖学金，到澳大利亚深造。在那里，他与黄英贤的母亲珍尼查曼相识、相爱并结婚。婚后他们在马来西亚生活了一段时间，后移民澳大利亚。

黄英贤从小就受到中华文化的熏陶。父亲经常对黄英贤说："别人可以拿走你的一切东西，但不能将你所受的教育拿走。" 黄英贤说："我很珍惜家庭和文化根基，我对我的华裔血统感到十分自豪和骄傲。"

童年时代受种族歧视

黄英贤是1977年移民澳大利亚的。她继承了父亲的血统，长着一张标致的，典型的中国人的脸和一头秀美的黑发。

那时，澳大利亚的种族歧视较严重，而南澳的华人又较少。她当时是学校里惟一的华裔学生，就免不了经受种族歧视。她亲身体会过那种不被接受的感觉，他们家的房子也被人涂鸦，上下学的途中被人辱骂、丢石块，在她幼小的心灵中，她明白了自己与别人的不同，体会到了受歧视的痛苦。这些经历使得她在小小年纪就立志从政，要追求社会公平。

自从上小学起，黄英贤学习成绩就很优秀，17岁时，她作为交换学生到巴西学习一年。巴西的贫富差距对她触动很大。黄英贤由于自身的经历而对弱势群体充满同情。当时她就认为，同情和仁慈应该是一切政策的基础，国家应对不公平做出反应，铲除不平等。

重视与中国关系

黄英贤回到澳洲后考入阿德莱德大学学习法律和艺术。她在大学期间成为校学生事务的活跃分子，也是在这个时期，她开始与澳洲工党建立起了联系，并加入澳洲工党。2002年黄英贤成为了澳洲历史上首位华裔女参议员。

进入澳洲上议院仅3年，2005年6月，黄英贤被澳洲联邦工党任命为影子内阁部长。黄英贤选入影子内阁，澳洲各媒体纷纷重点报道。黄英贤认为澳洲未来的繁荣和亚洲国家的关系息息相关，她一直致力推动澳洲与中国的关系。

回顾自己的成长历程，黄英贤说，父亲一直重视对孩子的教育，把人生的价值观传递给她，用中华文化熏陶她；而祖母教会她坚强和勇气；母亲教会她用爱心对待别人，教会她有幽默感。对于所有在她成长的道路上给予过她支持的人，她都充满感激，她用坚定的人生信念朝着自己的目标走下去。

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.184.93 (talk) 16:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

For completeness of information: The article reproduced above is from Xinhua.[10] (I didn't post it, I just looked it up.) Mporter (talk) 05:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Additional point on Chinese name

having a Chinese name does not designate you a Chinese citizen. she is not quoted as "Penny Wong" in Chinese newspapers in Australia but commonly by her Chinese name. This common usage satisfies her Chinese name being notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. Check out Adrienne Clarkson former Governor General of Canada, John So Mayor of Melbourne. Michellecrisp 11:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

More overseas Chinese who have Chinese names in their Wikipedia entry

• Michael Chong
• Tony Wong
• David Lam
• Michael Woo
• Sandrine Holt
• Angela Tong no Chinese citizenship born in Canada
• Edison Chen
• Katie Leung Chinese Scot
• Neville Poy

Michellecrisp 11:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I will contact Senator Wong next week and ask her if the Chinese name (ie, the name in Chinese script) is one she accepts as being her name and uses in appropriate situations. If she says it is not her name, I will delete it from this article. People have a right to choose their own name and not have foreign names foisted on them. Intelligent Mr Toad 15:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

foreign names foisted on them? I doubt it was a name invented by other people but rather given by her parents. Penny Wong's Chinese name is in such common usage in Australian Chinese language print media that a Chinese speaker would identify that as her name. And how about all those Chinese Canadians I've listed? and John So? Michellecrisp 03:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

None of that is relevant. All that is relevant is whether it is a name she accepts as being her name. If she doesn't, it must be deleted. Intelligent Mr Toad 10:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It is relevant, because then you need to contact John So and the others to see if they accept their Chinese name as on Wikipedia. You seem to take exception with Penny Wong but not others. It is irrelevant that they are not Chinese citizens. Michellecrisp 15:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think you do need to contact John So etc and find that out, but I am not editing John So's article so that does not concern me at the moment. Of course, John So was born in China so at one time the Chinese-script name was his actual name. That is not relevant here because Wong was born in Malaysia and has lived in Australia since she was eight. The Chinese-script name has never been her actual name: her name is Penelope Ying-yen Wong, written in the Roman alphabet. Any other version of her name is someone's invention, unless it can be shown that she uses it herself. Intelligent Mr Toad 04:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I am a Chinese Australian and regularly see John So and Penny Wong's name written in Chinese script in Chinese print media. This was discussed previously by Kowloonese above. The fact that most Chinese readers in Australia would recognise her Chinese script name makes it accepted. I don't get the argument put up by Mr Toad that English is an official language therefore Chinese names are unacceptable...that seems to me a bit of a White Australia policy. 210.56.73.142 05:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Kindly spare me such childish insults, they don't intimidate me, OK? Readers of the Chinese, Greek, Arabic and Hindi press regularly see John Howard's name written in the Chinese, Greek, Arabic and Hindi scripts, but that doesn't make those versions his actual name. How various people choose to render Senator Wong's name is totally irrelevant. The sole issue here is "what name does Senator Wong herself use?" When I find out the answer I will let you know. Until then I have nothing further to say. Intelligent Mr Toad 11:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not being childish, to simply discount foreign language versions of someone's name as not necessary for Australian citizens is childish or using a WP:IDONTKNOWIT#I.27ve_never_heard_of_it type argument. I'm not trying to intimidate you but merely point out it's a very weak argument to say a Chinese Australian (or Chinese Canadian, Chinese American etc) is not allowed to have a Chinese name because it's not an offical language of that country. You might as well removed all the Chinese names from Chinese Canadians too especially those not born in China. Can you read and understand the script of those other languages and they translate to/from English? I doubt it. John Howard like many non Chinese background persons appears as homophone Chinese characters as opposed to Transliteration into Chinese characters in Chinese print media or simply the English words "John Howard". This is because they have no adopted Chinese name given to them (usually by their parents). Because Penny Wong is of Chinese heritage, her parents gave her a Chinese name. This is not a name invented by the media as you're presuming. Because Greek alphabet can be roughly translated to a Roman alphabet, John Howard appears in Greek newspapers based on this Transliteration of Greek to the Latin Alphabet, similarly in Arabic: Romanization of Arabic. This has been confirmed to me by my Greek and Arabic speaking friends. Please understand the translation of foreign languages into/from English before making broad assumptions. 210.56.73.142 11:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

More on Chinese names, including John Howard's "Chinese name" Prime Minister John Howard and most ministers almost always adopt a sound translation - Yue han · Huo hua de (sounds a bit like John Howard, doesn't it) George Bush - Qiao zhi Bu shi Tony Blair - Tuo ni Bu lai er Any Chinese speaker knows this is an invented name rather than a Chinese name with any real meaning. Penny Wong's Chinese name does not fall into this category. from http://www.chincommunications.com.au/chinesenames.php 210.56.73.142 12:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

(Disclosure: Michellecrisp asked me to comment here on my talk page.) I am absolutely perplexed that we even have debates like this. In summary, I think she should have her Chinese name listed. I'll make a number of comments:

• Asking Ms Wong by email if that's her name isn't acceptable practice. This is original research.
• Malaysian Chinese still identify as Chinese (see the article) - and she was probably given her Chinese name at birth, not just some romanised English name.
• There is a big difference between say, John Howard's "Chinese name", and Penny Wong's Chinese name. Penny Wong, in all likelihood, being ethnically Chinese, has a Chinese name by birth; the fact that the Chinese media reports her name consistently reflects well on this suggestion. John Howard, in all likelihood, was not given a Chinese name at birth.
• Whether someone uses their Chinese name publicly is not relevant. I'm Chinese, and I have a Chinese name; however, you will not often see me use my Chinese name in public.
• Wikipedia:Proper_names#Personal_names suggests that it is not unusual to add native names to articles.

Regards, enochlau (talk) 02:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with asking her office how her name is written in Chinese. Sure it is original research, but is not one of the pillars of wikipedia that one should ignore all rules? If asking her office ensures that the info is correct, then wikipedia is not harmed. Sure it is original research, and is thus not verifiable, but meh! Mozzie (talk) 04:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

---

This topic has been beaten to death over and over again. Many names are simply transliteration, e.g. George Bush, in various non-English publication. However, there are many names that are alternate identity of a person that he/she chose to use in a non-English context. These names are not made up by the media, but issued officially to the media via their PR representative. Instead of repeating myself, I have presented many reasons why native names are encyclopedic info. See other arguments I presented in my User page and in the talk page of Michelle Kwan. Kowloonese 05:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I am curious if User:Intelligent Mr Toad and User:Dr.frog are related. Dr. Frog also gave similar arguments in Michelle Kwan's talk page. If these two users are indeed the same person, then all these threads are most likely just trolling. Kowloonese 01:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Bali Conference

Hi, I just wanted to point out that my information about Penny chairing the working committee at Bali came from a TV report on Sky News Australia. I don't think there's a way to create references to non-web-linked information is there? It's a fairly prominent role on the international stage, so I feel strongly about adding it to her entry nevertheless. Whophd (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Any published media source can be referenced I think?. Just need to look up the correct way to reference/cite a TV show. Channel name, show name, date and time.. Zarkme (talk) 07:45, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Which image?

Can people please advise which they prefer, uncropped or cropped. Thanks. Timeshift (talk) 04:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Gay

The lead section says Penny Wong is gay. I changed it to lesbian because gay is for males, while lesbian is for females (and the fact that Wong is female is not a disputed fact). Vertical MD (talk) 04:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If you were serious about making improvements to Wikipedia, you wouldn't have subtly vandalised the page as well. Reverted. Recurring dreams (talk) 04:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As with Julia Gillard. What a tool. Timeshift (talk) 04:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

While lesbian only applies to women, gay applies to both men and women. ash (talk) 06:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism

Wow, that's some concerted heavy vandalism that occurred tonight... glad I was out, and glad to see it's been taken care of with a page lock. Gotta wonder the awful lives some people must have when all they have to do is concerted vandalism against a politician. Get a life! Timeshift (talk) 13:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

First openly gay/asian born member of an...

Wouldn't it be better to say ministry rather than cabinet? This gives the impression there have been non-cabinet ministers who were openly gay/asian born. Timeshift (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. --Nick Dowling (talk) 11:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Affirmative Action Phrase

The current edit reads: "Wong ran for pre-selection for the Senate in 2001, and was selected for the top spot on the party's South Australian ticket, as a result of affirmative action policies and factional changes." This does not sound factual (more likely subtle vandalism), and should be removed if there is no supporting reference cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.211.251 (talk) 12:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware Affirmative Action is entirely a US concept so yes ... and to make a spurious claim like that, which is not only probably false, unsourced but not even possibly correct is just another side effect of the unfortunate language that's become the norm for supporters of the Australian opposition. If this sort of thing (and the vandalism referred to above) becomes common perhaps it would be worth semi-protecting this article?--Senor Freebie (talk) 12:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Commonwealth cabinet

Edited it to make it clear that Wong is the first openly gay member of cabinet at a federal level. Andrew Barr has been an openly gay minister in the ACT for several years. There may be others I am unaware of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.34.2 (talk) 00:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

First asian born minister/cabinet member

I changed the following: Wong is the first openly gay member, and the first Asian-born member, of an Australian Commonwealth cabinet or ministry to Wong is the first openly gay member, and the first Asian-born federal minister, or member of an Australian Commonwealth cabinet. A ministry implies the whole ministry, lead by a minister or senior public servant. This essentially meant that she was the first ever asian born employee of an Australian government department. But my question is whether it is excessive to say she was a cabinet member and minister... Are they not the same thing? Mozzie (talk) 04:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

For a list of Rudd government ministers, see First Rudd Ministry. For a list of Australian Cabinet ministers, see Australian Cabinet. Timeshift (talk) 06:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Timeshift9 Gone Mad?

Timeshift, considering your endless editing on political figures and Australian politics in general, I can only conclude that you are some sort of governmental bean-counting administrator whose job it is to suppress and erase any detrimental information one might come across on this so-called democratic encyclopaedia. I thus ask, no, in fact, I demand for my previous statement to be put back as I do consider it to be fair and balanced - more so fair and balanced than that other reputable company who prostituted the term - Fox News. Therefore it is obvious that we need at least to debate the subject. It would have been much more appropriate had you expressed your concerns on this very talk page instead of charging off on some deleting rampage - deleting something that had been meticulously referenced and well thought out. 220.244.128.25 (talk) 07:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I stand by my revert, and i'm sure others will back me up. Timeshift (talk) 12:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The quote isn't neutral and isn't notable enough to go in otherwise. Timeshift9 is correct. Rebecca (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Personal life

Re "She moved to Australia at the age of eight with her mother and brother Toby, after her parents separated. Her brother later committed suicide aged 30, ten days after Penny was elected to the Senate in 2001." Inclusion of the word "later" - while factually correct - seems to imply a causative link between either the family breakup or move to Australia, and her brother's suicide. It is particularly strange given the roughly 25 year gap between the two events. Futnuh (talk) 09:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't help wanting to know why Toby chose to commit suicide.. but I guess it would just be gossip and not truly relevant ... Zarkme (talk) 07:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Fixed: I have removed the causative link implication. Wakelamp (talk) 12:23, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Gay marriage

I've removed the following from the "Personal life" section, as I think it warrants further discussion:

Wong is a lesbian, and in July 2010 on Network Ten's Meet the Press stated her support for the Australian Labor Party's opposition to same-sex marriage, arguing there was "a cultural, religious, historical view around that which we have to respect".

Sources are: Meet the Press transcript & AAP report in the Sydney Morning Herald.

I have three concerns. The first is including it in the personal life section, immediately after the statement that she is a lesbian. Generally, her support for a party's policy wouldn't be a "personal life" issue. Second, this is the only political view mentioned in the article, and it seems that if we are to include any of her political views we need to give an overview of all of the major ones, rather than just include one. Finally, it seems to be an oversimplification of her view, so would, I think, need to be expanded to be NPOV. - Bilby (talk) 13:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

1. It should probably go into the career section then
2. lack of comprehensiveness alone doesn't warrant removal of reliably sourced information
3. no oversimplification, the article is pretty clear.

Hekerui (talk) 12:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Early life

"When she was 18, she seized control of the Labor Club away from a faction controlled by George Karzis." Is this line really appropriate? Does it make the article more encyclopedic to claim she 'seized' it away from some George fellow? I can understand that factions may be relevant, but surely mentioning the faction (left, right or whatever) is more appropriate then using the whole controlled by? Wouldnt it be better to say "became leader of the labor club" even if you mention contreversial circumstances etc etc 121.45.41.228 (talk) 11:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the "seized" was a bit strong, but the source used "wrested" so it wasn't overly so. I'm not sure about mentioning George Karzis by name, except that he is of some not having been a staffer and having been a candidate in at least one election, so I'm neutral on that. Anyway, I reworded it a tad - people are, as always, free to revert or reword as they see fit. The relevant bit seems that she ran the campus Labor club and that she gained that by taking over from someone who was well established. However, having been in enough uni clubs in my day, it doesn't necessarily mean much. :) - Bilby (talk) 11:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Just because a source uses a strong word to describe an event about a living person, doesn't mean wikipedia should unless there is multiple reliable and notable sources. If this wasn't the case every heartily worded piece of opinion in a newspaper would be eligible as encyclopedic content and that obviously is not useful.--Senor Freebie (talk) 12:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Gay marriage at the recent state conference

Articles like this can obviously be subject to recentism, but surely her support at the state conference for a change in the ALP's gay marriage stance (ABC coverage) rates a mention? I imagine new editors will start to add this soon, so perhaps it's worth a quick discussion about how much space to give it? I'm thinking a sentence in the career section (which could probably do with a rewrite anyway). Thoughts?  -- Lear's Fool 12:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal Life

Is it typical in the personal section for LGBT politicians to state firstly in their personal life section that they are LGBT? If not why is this the case with Penny Wong. Is it because she is the highest ranked openly gay politician in Australia. If so what defines highest rank? If sexuality is not a prioritised piece of information in politicians personal lives on wikipedia shouldn't it open with birth place, upbringing, parents names, schools etc. like it might for other influential characters? I'm just curious what the WP standard is for this kind of article.--27.32.168.222 (talk) 13:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

(What an interesting group of questions. I, too, am interested in the answers. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC))

She is the most senior minister who is gay in the federal Australian government cabinet. I don't believe has been anyone else openly gay in a federal cabinet. Just like the first woman, or the first aboriginal, or the first of any other noteable minority group, it has prominence. Everyone has a mother and father. WP does not have a set standard for how an article should be layed out, WP is a collaborative encyclopedia, so any possible perceived or real inconsistency can occur. That's why WP works on consensus. If you have an issue, by all means put your full hand on the poker table and be plain as to what's wrong and what you propose, and others will comment. If a consensus can be formed for new wording, the status quo can change without recourse to change back, unless a new consensus forms. Can I assist you with anything else? Timeshift (talk) 06:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Timeshift9 as she is partly famous for being a high profile LGBT politician. but I have moved down the comment about LBMT on the personal life to make it Chrono as this talk page seems moribund — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wakelamp (talk • contribs) 12:26, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Her baby or their baby?

It seems hard to tell what would be the best terminology here, and it seems that referring to "their child" is contentious, so I thought it would be best brought here. Thus, are Penny Wong and Sophie Allouache expecting their first child, or is it just that Sophie Allouache is expecting her first? As far as I can tell, the major media seem to be referring to "their" child: [11], [12], [13], but op-ed pieces sometimes take a different stance. I'd prefer to acknowledge their child, as they are both to be parents after the birth, but there is an alternative view. - Bilby (talk) 23:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to assume bad faith and claim simple utter homophobia. They will both legally be the child's parents. A man and woman adopting is no different in terminology to two people of the same gender. Timeshift (talk) 07:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Apart from the accusation of homophobia, I agree.  -- Lear's Fool 07:36, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Heterosexual couples expect 'their' child, and I don't see why we'd use different wording for same-sex couples Nick-D (talk) 07:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool - thanks for that. It was pretty much my feeling as well. - Bilby (talk) 08:31, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of anyones opinion, the fact is that Penny Wong can not become the legal parent of this child in South Australia. The wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopaedia which deals with facts and not political opinions of weather or not two people of the same gender should or should not be allowed to adopt a child.118.208.128.186 (talk) 11:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The assumption of bad faith is wrong. Encyclopaedias deal with facts, not your opinion or assumption. The fact is that Penny Wong can not be called this childs parent in South Australia.118.208.128.186 (talk) 11:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

In Australia, SA, along with all other states, recognize co-mothers as birth parents in regard to IVF programs. Legally, Penny Wong will be recognized as a birth parent in SA. I'm not sure this line of reasoning is that relevant, as certainly the child will be raised with two parents, both of whom happen to be women, but the legal problems don't apply in this case. - Bilby (talk) 11:52, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. The anonymous IPs must understand that their changes are disputed, thus to change from the status quo, they require consensus, not the other way around. Timeshift (talk) 06:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

ALP website as a source on early life?

It seems to me that the wording on the ALP website is better then the current 'early life' wording for Penny Wong; [Source]

"Penny was born in Sabah, Malaysia. She moved to Australia when she was eight and settled in the Adelaide Hills. She won a scholarship to Scotch College and obtained a Bachelor of Arts Degree and a Law Degree (Hons) from the University of Adelaide. Penny began working for the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union when she was still studying and stayed with the union after she was admitted to the Bar. She became an elected organiser and industrial officer. She was then employed as a ministerial advisor to the Carr government in New South Wales, concentrating on forest policy. She later returned to Adelaide to practise law. Penny Wong is the duty Senator for the electorates of Mayo and Hindmarsh."

I'm not advocating simply switching them but simply using the above to improve the articles content.--Senor Freebie (talk) 12:48, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Religion

The Uniting Church is NOT a religion ... Pdfpdf (talk) 12:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

The day all religious folk can agree on such definitions will be the day encyclopaedists' lives become a lot easier. HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

ROTFL! Pdfpdf (talk) 11:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC) But never-the-less ...

Brother's death

I'd appreciate if someone could improve the wording of the line I have added about her brother's death. It doesn't read quite right. --Surturz (talk) 02:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

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Malaysian citizenship?

Has she provided proof she renounced her Malaysian citizenship? http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/sabah-born-aussie-senator-penny-wong-still-a-msian-citizen-can-she-hold-dual-citizenship-or-will-hypocrite-zahid-give-her-special-permission-like-pr-zakir-naik/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.99.164.65 (talk) 07:00, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Jay Weatherill

Can someone (e.g. @Frey's Fray:) please provide proof of the Weatherill Wong domestic partnership (i.e. living together or something analogous) to avoid any further edit conflict. Please put the quote in the cite if link is paywalled. Thanks. Since Jay Weatherill article doesn't mention Wong in infobox I'm going to remove it from this infobox to await solid proof. Donama (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Why this should be noted in the infobox also needs to be considered. Is this really a prominent part of Wong's life? Nick-D (talk) 03:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

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this article has received major media coverage

This article has received major media coverage in Australia recently. There is the customary risk of sudden bad-faith IP editing, so be on alert. Semi-prot can be implemented if the need becomes apparent. Manning (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

The Fairfax media is calling these edits "trolling",and there seems to be a bit of a political witch hunt to find the culprit. Why the subject of the edits is appearing in the media is beyond me. Removing children's names might seem to be an intentional good faith edit unless there is a pattern of trolling behind the IP address in question. I am not convinced calling these edits "trolling". Surfing bird (talk) 05:54, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

The edits are trolling (denying that Wong has children), and it's not a "political witch hunt" - for obvious reasons public servants aren't permitted to make anything which could be seen as political comments while at work. Nick-D (talk) 07:41, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

As there's been some nasty IP editing this afternoon, I've semi-protected the article for 24 hours. New editors interested in this topic are reminded to first read Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Nick-D (talk) 10:26, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Good call. Manning (talk) 15:28, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Removal of budget papers by Penny Wong

9 news is reporting Penny Wong is breaching confidentiality of the budget papers of the official lock up ahead of the official release time by refusing to return them. Should be cited https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/05/22/06/35/wong-broke-budget-papers-release-report 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:104D:30B8:2960:186A (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like a trivial, political point scoring exercise to me. Won't be news in a week. Maybe even tomorrow. HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

It's barely even news today: only two outlets have run the story at all, with a clear denial from Labor that she did anything wrong at all. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Penny Wong with Samoan Leaders June 2022.jpg

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Is she gay, lesbian or LGBTI?

Earlier versions of this article described Penny Wong as gay or lesbian, but this has now changed. We now have:

"She was also the first female openly-LGBTI Australian federal parliamentarian,"

LGBTI is a group designation. It does not apply to individuals. For example, Wong is not "I" as in intersex.

I have tried changing this back to gay, but I keep getting reverted.

Please can we change this back to "gay" or "lesbian", which makes a lot more sense than calling a person "LGBTI".

Marchino61 (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

She was the first person from the broader group to be elected to parliament. That is plainly a true statement. It is absurd to suggest that she needs to be a member of every subcategory of that group for that to be true. The "personal life" situation gets into the specifics of her identity. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Surely the first LGBTI senator was Senator Bob Brown from the Greens in Tasmania? I am not sure when they were elected, but he is much older, now retired, and i don't think he started particularly late? Irtapil (talk) 02:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Just checked, Bob Brown was 1996 and Penny Wong was 2002. So she would have to be "first lesbian" specifically, or "first LGBTIQ woman", because Bob was "first Gay senator" and "first LGBTIQ senator" in Australian federal senate. Irtapil (talk) 02:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

In this case it's not calling a person LGBTI (e.g. "Wong is LGBTI"), it's saying they're the first in the group. It's like if I said "Tony Abbott was the first Coalition MP to [something]", it's silly to say Tony Abbott wasn't a member of the National Party so he can't be described as a Coalition MP. --Canley (talk) 02:05, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

i would go with however she refers to herself? though she usually doesn't talk much about her personal life, not in a closeted way, just in a focused on her job way. Irtapil (talk) 02:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Personal langugage: Indonesian language

The article says that Wong speaks Indonesian as this is what the source article says (ie that she stunned the crowd by speaking fluent Indonesian) but isn't it more likely that (and more correct to say) Wong speaks Bahasa Malay, which is mutually intelligible to speakers of Bahasa Indonesia? ash (talk) 06:33, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

She would be more likely to know Malay. But it also seems likely that she could have learnt fluent Indonesian quite easily by already knowing Malay. Indonesian is also taught in a lot of Australian high schools. So if the source says she spoke "fluent Indonesian" I think that is probably true, unless you have a reliable source that says otherwise? Irtapil (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Three-Character Name should be shown

Sen. Wong has a three-character Chinese name that corresponds to "Wong Ying-Yen". This should be included because it is used consistently in Chinese language media, including Chinese language media from Australia's ABC and SBS. The Romanization should match her official name in English, because that is how she says her own surname and middle names (i.e. Mandarin Pinyin "Huang" would be inappropriate). I am not sure whether Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese would be more appropriate or if it should be shown both ways? I'll add whichever I find most commonly used in Australian media. Irtapil (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The ABC seems to only offer simplified Chinese? Chinese: 黄英贤 the United Nations and the BBC also use that name for her in Chinese. Irtapil (talk) 07:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I think there is a spelling error

I think was a spelling error not sure under the personal section I noticed what I thought was a misspelled word shouldn't it be (practicing) with the letter c ? not practising? With the letter s ? It looked like a s ? Not sure I could be wrong but I thought that's what I saw I always thought it was always spelled with c tried to fix only because it caught my eye at least that's what I thought I saw if I'm wrong on the spelling I apologize I just remembered thinking wait that should be a C in practicing instead of s anyway I didn't realize about the talk button on Wikipedia I would have done that first instead of trying to fix myself anyway great bio on Peggy Wong well done very nicely written and sorry if I made a mistake 2600:1008:B055:9D1E:7FC5:2195:EA9F:B48B (talk) 02:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining yourself. As you suggest, the issue is complicated. Both "practising" and "practicing" are valid English words. Australian English, which is the version used in Penny's bio, prefers "practising". Burrobert (talk) 03:06, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Public Image section lavish praise

"principled, intellectual, private, restrained and sane".

"the most trusted politician in Australia among respondents."

"Australia's most trusted politician".

"most liked politician in the country"

Aren't you guys overdoing it a bit with the lavish praise in the Public Image section? 27.32.165.42 (talk) 12:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't be bothered looking up all of them, but those quotes sound like comments made about Wong by others. That is certainly the case with the first one. Our article explicitly says it's what her biographer said about her. All content in Wikipedia is supposed to supported by reliable sources, and that piece obviously is. It's not something invented by "you guys". If you can find what you believe to be inappropriate content that is not reliably sourced, please let us know. HiLo48 (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)