Talk:Interstate 110 and State Route 110 (California)/Archive 1

As someone who lives here, I've never heard it referred to as Freeway 110 or the Route 110 Freeway. I think previous editors had it right when they used the term, 110 Freeway for the whole stretch from Pasadena-San Pedro.

Also, there is a four-mile stretch south of 190th Street where the Interstate 110 portion is NOT in the city of Los Angeles. It marks the border between Carson, California and an unincorporated bit of county land. Mackerm 02:21, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Interstate 110 and California State Highway 110

OK, now I'm not at all familiar with California highways, but this is very confusing. If I understand what was discussed at Talk:List of California State Highways, Interstate 110 and California State Highway 110 are separate designations for different highways which just happen to appear to be continuous because they meet at the same junction. I.e., Interstate 110 is the designation south of Interstate 10 and it is CA-110 north of that.

Is the article incorrect to state California State Route 110 extends from from California State Route 47 in San Pedro, California to Glenarm Street in Pasadena, California.? Shouldn't this say it extends from Glenarm Street in Pasadena, California to the junction with Interstate 10?
The article currently states: The portion of Route 110 south of Interstate 10 is additionally designated Interstate 110. shouldn't this instead say that it is only designated I-110 instead of additionally?
The confusion is complicated because so many things redirect to this page. And it really should belong to both Category:Interstate highways in California and Category:California state highways, although it looks very odd to see an Interstate article appear in the State highway list.

older≠wiser 14:38, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Additionally, there are several highways designated Interstate 110 in other states:Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, and an unsigned segment in Texas. http://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i110.html I propose the current article to California State Highway 110 (or perhaps just California Route 110) and then create a new Interstate 110 article for the Interstates and reference this one. older≠wiser 14:58, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pretty nice job for a non-local. :) I would have updated earlier, pretty much the way you did, but I haven't been able to get to the computer. I found a highways site which has the benefit of linking to California state law with the exact definitions of the state routes: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/6244/cahwys/cahwys.html

This shows that they state routes overlap the interstate routes, i.e. a stretch of freeway is both state route 110 and interstate 110. One nit... for some reason they give the definitions from south to north. I also think List of California State Highways needs to have all the names changed to California State Route or California Route as you've suggested. Probably other states have the same problem. Not that most freeways even deserve a Wikipedia article, but the 110 has historical importance Mackerm 18:39, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A couple of questions occur to me about route designations in California: Is there a distinction between a numbered route (i.e., route 110) and "State Highway" or "State Route" designation? In reading the link Mackerm posted above and others, it often looks like there is a deliberate obsfucation going on, that there is a single continuous Route 110 that consists of two segments--Interstate 110 and State Highway 110. WARNING: this distinction could just be a figment of my imagination. But if this is the case, it might cause some problems for us in trying to keep a consistent naming pattern. The following sites indicate that the Interstate and State Highway designations are separate:

[1]
[2]

older≠wiser 20:50, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you missed it, here's a link to the actual California law which designates the highways [3] Route 110 is section 410 of the law. I read that a few years ago, they changed the state route number from 11 to 110 to comply with some federal guideline. I don't see that there's much of a problem re. Wikipedia article names, since 3-digit interstates will usually have bits and pieces in various states. Mackerm 21:09, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for that. As I read it though, it doesn't really clear things up. It describes routes in the "state highway system" which is not necessarily the same thing as a "State Highway" designation. For example, the same article describes Route 5 which is actually Interstate 5 (unless I am really missing something). Similarly, Route 101 I think is actually US 101. older≠wiser 22:10, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This section of the law says that all of the listed routes are categorized as "state highways": [4]. (A sub-page of: [5]). Mackerm 16:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, then I am very confused, because if that is true, then routes listed here, such as Route 5 or 15, which are Interstates are also state highways. This doesn't make much sense to me. older≠wiser 21:01, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't know that it's unusual for a route to be designated both a state highway and an interstate. In Utah there are (at least) interstates 15, 70, 80, 84 and 215. I managed to find the part of the Utah Code which designates state highways [6], note this section for example, [7]: (5) SR-15. From the Utah-Arizona state line near St. George to the Utah-Idaho state line south of Malad, Idaho, on interstate Route 15. Mackerm 04:42, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it's the state route/state highways terminology that I find confusing. I have no problem with Interstates also being designated as state routes--Interstates are, after all under the control of the state DOT. But a route is not necessarily the same thing as a designated state highway. In my experience, highways designated as state highways have a specific type of signage identifying them as state highways. Are you saying that a highway such as Interstate 110 or Interstate 5 also bear signage identifying them as state highways? older≠wiser 11:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

But it says "state highway" right there in the law! Read again from the very top: http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE72/htm/72_04009.htm Mackerm 01:48, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I can read, but it is still confusing. older≠wiser 01:50, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'll have a crack at re-editing the introductory paragraph at List of California state highways. See what you think. Mackerm 05:54, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If anyone's looking at this after the fact, here's the scoop:

Every California numbered route is a State Highway.
State Highways have multiple types of shields. Some are signed with U.S. Highway shields. Some are signed with Interstate Highway shields.
Some State Highways are unsigned. CA 51 is signed as part of Business Loop Interstate 80.
Part of State Highway 50 (signed as US 50) is also Interstate 305. This is only assigned at the federal level for funding purposes. This part is also signed as part of Business Loop Interstate 80.

To the outsider, it's just like any other state. Other states have Interstates becoming State Highways of the same number (for instance Interstate 890 to New York State Highway 890). --SPUI (talk) 09:04, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My $0.02 on the question of merging the articles is:

Locals do not generally cosnider these to be the same freeway. One travels on either the Pasadena Freeway or the Harbor Freeway.
There is historical significance for CA-110, the nation's first urban freeway. This significance is not shared for I-110.
The two roadways share very little in common aside from similar identifications (not identical as I-110 and CA-110 do not indicate the same highway number to me). Each of the two roads have dsitinctive characteristics which are not shared by each other.

--69.235.194.121 08:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support the merge. Per California law there is only one Highway 110 since duplicate numbers are not allowed. In this case CA-110 is not just contiguous with I-110, they are infact the same highway. Similarly I-238 and CA-238 are also the exact same highway and should similarly be merged.Gateman1997 00:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merging. I agree that I-238/CA-238 could be merged, and even I-980/CA-24, although most people probably wouldn't support that. They have different signage and different names, but principally they should remain separate because they are are functionally two different pieces of roadway, each worthy of an article. Joydawg 05:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose a merge. This article can cover general history of SR 11 before the renumbering, as well as specific history of the SR 110 part, and the former SR 110 in San Pedro. The I-110 article can cover specific history of that part. By the way, Interstate 110 is not part of State Route 110, but part of Route 110. --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 08:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Figuring out the history

This was not the first freeway in the United States. The Pennsylvania Turnpike opened two months earlier, and the Merritt Parkway was a couple years earlier (although the latter doesn't meet modern freeway standards). See Freeway for more info. It was one of the first, though.

Some information from [8]

Before the parkway was built, Figueroa Street ended south of Dodger Stadium as what is now Figueroa Terrace. The piece north of the tunnels was Dayton Avenue (not sure how far).[9] The north three of the four Figueroa Street Tunnels opened in late 1931. Traffic used North Broadway to Solano Avenue through the tunnels to Riverside Drive, but was there access across the Los Angeles River there? The present Riverside Drive bridge is dated 1938, but it may have replaced an earlier bridge shown on [10].

The south tunnel is dated 1936. The underpasses under Temple Street and First Street downtown are 1940.

pre-1964 Legislative Route 165 defined 1933, San Pedro to La Canada

pre-1964 Legislative Route 205 defined July 13, 1935, I-5 to Pasadena - traded with the county for the 34-mile Pear Blossom Highway

Figueroa Street Viaduct construction began 1937, extending straight from the north tunnel to Dayton Avenue.

Construction began March 22, 1938 by the State Division of Highways

Opened July 20, 1940 from Orange Grove Avenue to Avenue 40 (Avenue 40?!)

Opening ceremonies December 30, 1940 from Avenue 40 south to the Los Angeles River, not clear if the north part opened yet, but a contract between Grand Avenue and Fair Oaks Avenue was completed January 30, 1941

Originally had an at-grade intersection southbound with Riverside Drive and both directions with Solano Street, Bishops Road, Cottage Home Street, Castelar Street and Bernard Street

Southerly Extension to Adobe Street began construction in October 1940, opening ceremony December 30, 1943

Construction began by late 1947 to extend it to the 1949 Four Level Interchange, completed September 22, 1953

Name changed November 16, 1954 to Pasadena Freeway

Bridge dates

1949 Four Level Interchange
1948 under Sunset Boulevard
1948 under Alpine Street
1939 under College Street
under pedestrian bridge
1962 under ramp to Stadium Way
1942 under ramp to Hill Street
1942 northbound under Stadium Way
1942 southbound over Stadium Way
1936 northbound tunnel
1942 southbound over Amador Street
1942 southbound over Solano Avenue
1931 northbound tunnel
1942 southbound under Park Row Drive
1931 northbound tunnel
1931 northbound tunnel
1936 northbound over Los Angeles River
1944 southbound over Los Angeles River
1940 southbound over ramp to Figueroa Street
1925-1939 under Avenue 26
1962 under ramp to I-5
1961 under pedestrian bridge

Irrelevant trivia

I removed this paragraph from the article as irrelevant:

"This is the freeway that is central to the plot of the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," where a madman (Judge Doom, played by Christopher Lloyd) tries to destroy Toon Town to build a freeway from Los Angeles to Pasadena, California."

The movie uses the names Pasadena and Los Angeles, but does anybody in the world (other than, perhaps, the anonymous, three-time user who inserted the paragraph) really believe that the proposed freeway through the entirely fictional Toon Town was the actual Pasadena Freeway? The highway can be seen in the other movies mentioned in the section, but not in this one.

(Edited to add a heading—I put it in the wrong place to begin with—and because I forgot to sign my original edit.) Whyaduck 04:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]