Talk:Frances Grey, Duchess of Suffolk

Could someone please find a citation regarding Frances having three children with Adrian Stokes. I have never come across this informatioj before and I am struggling to find a source to verify the information in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LittleKingSquid (talk • contribs) 17:47, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Intro

INCEST?? Both Henry Grey and Charles Brandon are identified as the First Duke of Suffolk, both here and in articles of their own. Did she marry her own father? Bit much, even for the Brits! Too Old 02:51, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

Grey and Brandon were indeed both the "First Duke of Suffolk", this is due to Brandon's line expiring in 1551 with the death of his second son. The Dukedom passed to his son-in-law, Grey, however this is still regarded as a new creation and as such Grey became the "First Duke" (his immediate predecessor, Charles the younger, was the "Third Duke"). Rje 03:59, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Truly astounding! How do you ever keep all this nonsense straight? And why, with all the other important and fascinating things you could focus your attention on, do you devote so much of it to this sort of thing? Too Old 07:08, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

You really should not make comments about things you are so clearly ignorant of. Read the article on Frances Brandon's eldest daughter and you will realise that "this sort of thing" is very important to British history and is far from nonsense. Rje 14:18, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Second Daughter's Marriage

I've never before seen it said that Frances Brandon negotiated her daughter Catherine's marriage to Edward Seymour. Have always seen that this was something that Catherine and Seymour did clandestinely, with nobody knowing about it save this minister who performed the wedding, and the groom's sister, Jane, who died before she was able to testify that the marriage actually took place.

Also, Frances Brandon died the year before the marriage took place. To say that she arranged Catherine's marriage sounds likely inaccurate to me. - CassieBlue 06/20/2006 4.40pm

POV Problems

This article is clearly biased. I have read a number of accounts of Frances Brandon that are not written in as scathing a manner as this. I will cite alternative sources when I have more time. The abuse of her daughter and her role in the machinations to bring Jane the crown are the subject of historical debate. Whoever wrote this article is looking at her life from a singular point of view. If the things written here are true, Mary I certainly would not have kept Frances at court with favored status. Agrippina Minor

Completely agree with you, Agrippa Minor. --Feuerrabe (talk) 09:16, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

" If the things written here are true, Mary I certainly would not have kept Frances at court with favored status."

Someone needs to actually read a true history text and or learn about some of the people in the Court of Mary I!

Remove portrait

I've the image from this article; it was definitively identified as Mary Nevill not Frances Brandon back in the 1980s; see Image:Mary Nevill and Gregory Fiennes Baron Dacre v.2.jpg - PKM 19:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The new image, although certainly placed here in good faith, is based on the one I removed last year. It is no longer believed to be Frances Brandon. - PKM (talk) 06:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

==Easygoing== I have altered the word easygoing to placid as the former is just too slangy for an encyclopedic article on a sixteenth-century English person.

Portrait

I hesitate to re-enter the Wikipedia maelstrom, but the portrait attached to this article is NOT a portrait of Frances Brandon Grey and should therefore be removed. Further, the Royal Collection at Windsor Castle from which it came asserts copyright over the photographic image, so that its inclusion here is a violation of copyright law. In case anyone wants or needs to know, the Royal Collection catalogues the portrait as "Portrait of Unknown Lady, circa 1560".PhD Historian (talk) 06:42, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Children by Stokes

What is the precise source for the claim that Frances bore three children by Stokes? This is a wholly unsupported statement that contradicts numerous secondary sources, including Ives cited in note 10. 2605:E000:FFC0:3B:3D3B:5507:A745:F97 (talk) 04:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

https://www.historyofroyalwomen.com/frances-brandon/frances-brandon-daughter-of-the-french-queen-part-one/#:~:text=On%2016%20July%201517%2C%20Lady,her%20name%20commemorated%20the%20Saint TeddyRooFan1! (talk) 17:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Source for Name Origin?

The statement added to "Early Life" section: "At the time the name Frances was unique with only a small number of girls holding the name. It is reported that she received her name from St. Frances who was canonized on July 16, 1218." seems like it could use a source, especially the part "It is reported", who reported? ZGMU (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

This information may be wrong. The only St. Frances I know of is St. Frances of Rome who was canonized in 1608. St. Francis of Assisi was canonized 16 July 1228, which is closer to the date used in the article but the name and year don't exactly line up. NocturnalAudax (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

https://www.historyofroyalwomen.com/frances-brandon/frances-brandon-daughter-of-the-french-queen-part-one/#:~:text=On%2016%20July%201517%2C%20Lady,her%20name%20commemorated%20the%20Saint TeddyRooFan1! (talk) 17:11, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

article that shows proof of documentation TeddyRooFan1! (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion this source is dubious at best. It's clearly not a scholarly source and doesn't cite where this piece of information comes from. Given that the articles' spelling of Frances has since been changed to Francis, it's pretty clear that the clarification was needed and that saying St.Frances was canonized on July 16, 1218 was technically wrong. NocturnalAudax (talk) 04:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

https://www.historyofroyalwomen.com/frances-brandon/frances-brandon-daughter-of-the-french-queen-part-one/#:~:text=On%2016%20July%201517%2C%20Lady,her%20name%20commemorated%20the%20Saint TeddyRooFan1! (talk) 17:11, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Needs corrections and clarifications

The part of the "Early life and first marriage" about her name is somewhat confusing and lacks citations. For example, "Frances Brandon was born on 16 July 1517 in Hatfield, Hertfordshire, At the time the name Frances was unique with only a small number of girls holding the name." The capitalization between "Hertfordshire" and "At" imply that they're different sentences, but a comma is used instead of a period. The phrasing of "At the time the name Frances was unique with only a small number of girls holding the name" feels awkward. I feel that it was worded much better by Claire Ridgeway in "Frances Grey, Duchess of Suffolk (1517-1559)." It's unclear which St. Frances is being spoken of due to either a lack of citation or link. The switch between Frances and Francis is unclear. Did one name come first and the other is a derivative? That should be clarified.

The sentence "He secured a Papal bull from Pope Clement VII in 1528 to confirm his marriage to Mary Tudor, which legitimized Frances as his daughter" implies that Frances was a bastard at one point. That should probably be explained further. The article also says that Frances marriage and children "led to her life in the Tudor Court" but prior to that it says that she and Catherine of Aragon "would spend quite a bit of time together." Was that time spent together not at court? If not then where was it? Later the article says "As the niece of Henry VIII, Frances was frequently at court." This really needs to be clarified.

Additionally the there are a decent amount of typos and capitalization issues throughout the article. For example, the description for the portrait of Frances Grey has quite a few. "a portraits by unknow artist of Frances Grey. copy of work by Hans Epworth in the National Portrait Gallery." NocturnalAudax (talk) 18:25, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

corrected error TeddyRooFan1! (talk) 18:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)