Talk:Mischling

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 16 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SidneyKB.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

I removed the last para because I content that it wasn't neutral, if not inaccurate. (See NPOV.) I googled mishling and "John Kerry" and got a whopping 5 results, only one of which made any direct mention of Kerry and this word. See the Google results. -- Alcarillo 23:43 23 Apr 2004 UTC

Judging by the article itself, this seems to be a German word, rather than an English word. It does appear in 1570 english language pages found by Google though. Etxrge 07:07, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

modern German usage

In modern German usage: I have not heard the word for persons for a long time. (Insulting usage excepted) Most of the time it is used for dog or cats from differend race, with out any negative meaning.

Thats true though. Germans don't use these typical anglo-american race classification anymore nowerdays. Since nobody has a RACE or heritage sektion printed in his passport its not only uncommon to use phrases containing Mischling(hybrid, mongrel, half breed) it alway raises public media discussions if things like afro-german or ethiopien-descended-german etc. are broadcasted. The general consens is to call them german if they are germans(by citizenship or practice).

It's a term which is coidentified with the Nazi era and not used for that reason like "erwachen" or naming a baby boy "Adolf". Historian932 (talk) 15:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm German. And I can assure you: "Erwachen" is a generic word of everyday language. The Nazi slogan Deutschland erwache has not changed the fact that every single German erwacht each morning from sleep. --188.192.205.158 (talk) 20:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Erwachen" sounds old fashioned and high-browed. The common phrase for waking up from sleep would be "aufwachen". Strasburger (talk) 08:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Johannes Zukertort ?

The article has a link to a Johannes Zukertort (described as a "last-rank general", but this lnk goes to a German-Polish Jew who was a chess master, and died in 1888....Was there indeed a mischling General Zuckertort? Engr105th (talk) 18:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing out the problems. Now take another look at the list and follow the links. "Zukertort" is the correct spelling. Richard David Ramsey 17:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

What I wonder about is whether there is a blood relationship between the chess master of the 19th century and these officers -- I see nothing about this in the chess player's bio but it wd not be surprising since Zukertort was almost world chess champion at one point so the naming might not be coincidental.--Jrm2007 (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Omissions

1. The article says nothing about what happened, in general terms, to these people. After all, the majority didn't become officers in the Wehrmacht. Norvo (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2. Much of the article is identical with this text:

So what's going?

3. On what authority is the claim that Jews who converted to Christianity became Roman Catholics rather than Protestants based?

4. Baptismal records were used very widely to prove non-Jewish ancestry. Priests and pastors all over Germany were inundated with requests like 'Please send me my Aryan grandmother' and the like. I hope to find a source for this soon. Obviously, the churches in Germany found whole matter extremely embarrassing for decades after 1945 and it's not something that's widely talked about. Norvo (talk) 23:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On your Probe 3, Norvo, see the note concerning p. 300 of Bryan Mark Rigg, Hitler's Jewish Soldiers. But besides the possible collocation of ethnic Jews with Roman Catholic geographic areas, Protestantism is by nature already diverse; with 28 Lutheran denominations in Germany during the Third Reich, Lutherans were possibly less concerned with, or even cognizant of, the existence of yet another religious group (Jews) in a town in Lutheran Germany while a synagogue in heavily Catholic Bavaria would have stood out as a distinct variation from the overall pattern. Additionally, conversion to Roman Catholicism offered, beyond the borders of Germany, affiliation with the largest fellowship in Christendom and could thus be perceived as more advantageous. Finally, the more-likely high church atmosphere of Roman Catholicism may have appealed to those Jews who were accustomed to a liturgical atmosphere in many synagogues. My statements are conjectural, and I welcome anyone with referenced facts and numbers to shed more light on the answer to Norvo's Probe 3. Richard David Ramsey 05:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

This conjecture seemed right to me, so I found a citation from the Holocaust Research Project.0nullbinary0 (talk) 11:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry folks, the source I thought I had found turns out to be unreliable. So a citation is still needed for this.0nullbinary0 (talk) 11:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Find certain passage potentially misleading

Article states: "Thus Jews who had converted to Christianity could be regarded as especially deceitful and subversive, while Gentiles who had converted to Judaism were perceived as traitors to the "Aryan race" and were among the first to be persecuted and killed."

My understanding is that the first people to be persecuted were communists and/or socialists, with persecution of people of Jewish ancestry only following the Nuremburg Laws some four years later. Thus perhaps what the author meant was that *among Jews* converts from Christianity were the first to be killed, however, I have not heard this either (not saying it's not true but perhaps a citation is in order? Otherwise it should be deleted). Historian932 (talk) 15:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fate Under Nazi German in the Lead

There needs to be a summary of their fate/status under Nazi Germany. Short and clear. For example Did they go to the camps? Cuz at the end of the day this is what all of this is coming down to. --Inayity (talk) 20:12, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree

The article is a description of the term "Mischling" not a rendition of the term "Holocaust" which by the way, is an existing article. We all know what eventually happened and no one in their right mind would dare to deny that, but contrary to what you say, this article is not about "what all of this is coming down to". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.135.94.29 (talk) 18:53, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Latin root

re the intro:

The Germanic root is cousin to the Latin term whence the Spanish term mestizo and French term métis originate.

Does anyone know if we have a source for this somewhere? Wiktionary does appear to support the idea:

WIKT:métis#French "From Late Latin mixticius, from Latin mixtus. Compare Portuguese mestiço, Spanish mestizo."
WIKT:mestizo#Spanish "From Late Latin mixticĭus, from Latin mixtus (“mixed”). Cognate to Portuguese mestiço, French métis."
WIKT:mestiço#Portuguese "From Late Latin mixticius, from Latin mixtus (“mixed”). Compare Spanish mestizo, French métis."

If we are going to mention French/Spanish then it seems like Portuguese could also be appropriate. As well as clarifying what "the Latin term" mentioned is (which appears to be mixticius). Strangely these 3 entries do not actually mention or link to WIKT:Mischling#German though. The etymology for that seems to be different:

From Middle High German mischelinc, equivalent to mischen (“to mix”) +‎ -ling (“-ling”). Compare English mixling.

Is it possible the etymological data in the introduction here might be misleading? Why I think a source establishing this would be useful. ScratchMarshall (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Potential Edits for "Origins of Jewish Identity" Section

The title of this section of the article "Origins of Jewish Identity" could use some clarification, and a proposed new title of the section could be "Nazi Definitions of Mischling". The definition of Jews according to Nazis could be altered to emphasize the fact that these definitions were racist constructs implemented by Nazis. Within the section "Origins of Jewish Identity" a proposed plan is to add more laws and details, such as the Citizenship Law as well as the so called Law for the Defense of German Blood and Honor. ^[1] These additional laws would expand upon the various identifiers of mischlings versus "full Jews". To enhance the flow of the section it is proposed that the four bullet points would be moved to the end of the section to have all the text first. Some adjustments would be made to emphasize the racism towards Jews in particular during the WWII time period. The source that the information would be pulled from is from Saul Friedlander's "Nazi Germany and the Jews: The Years of Persecution" book. Friedlander is a credible source for being a previous Pulitzer Prize winner as well as historian. All together I will add approximately 200 words. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this talk page. SidneyKB (talk) 05:00, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Friedlander, Saul (1997). -Jews-1933-1945-Abridged-Edition-2009-Malestrom.pdf Nazi Germany and the Jews (PDF) (1 ed.). HarperCollins. pp. 149–150. ISBN 0-06-092878. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help); Check |url= value (help)

[1] Friedlander, Saul (1997). -Jews-1933-1945-Abridged-Edition-2009-Malestrom.pdf Nazi Germany and the Jews (PDF) (1 ed.). HarperCollins. pp. 149–150. ISBN 0-06-092878. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help); Check |url= value (help)

[1]